Show frames doesn't display anything

[Yardl3y]

Just want to start by saying that this is an awesome plugin. I just came across it today and have been testing it out, it works great for games already included in ssf.txt, but I am finding it difficult to figure out the frame values for games not included in that file.

I would think that enabling "Show Frames" and disabling "Black out screen during startup" would display a frame count so that one can easily figure out the frame value to use but that is not the case. Am I misunderstanding the way in which this is supposed to work?

[Jakobud]

Yeah I agree that it is not very clear on how that all works. I recently refactored how it worked and it's not as clear as it used to be and there are some unexpected behavior. I will update soon with a more straightforward solution.

[PL1-Arcade]

When a game is not listed in ssf.txt or ssf_custom.txt, the plugin assumes the frame value is 0.

With SSF plugin v3.0.0, the frame count disappears when it reaches the frame value. (See issue #47)

That's probably why you aren't seeing the frame count.

You can work around this by rolling back to SSF plugin v2.3.0 (it's much more user friendly than v3.0.0) or by putting a large value into ssf_custom.txt for the new game you want to add. (for large value changes, editing ssf_custom.txt is easier than using the GUI)
https://github.com/Jakobud/skipstartupframes/releases/tag/v2.3.0

Are there any specific games where you are not seeing the frame count with one of these two methods?

I ask because there are several games where the frame count is not visible. (Issue #28)

• Space Zap (spacezap,0)
• Professor Pac-Man (profpac,1035)
• Extra Bases (ebases,210)

Scott

[Jakobud]

Yeah I realize that problem now. I tried to make things more simple but they ended up being unintuitive.

I feel like maybe a better approach would be to get rid of all options and just have a single "Debug" option. It will just stay on until you turn it off. Debug on = Slow Motion + Frames + No Blackout + No Mute. It would be a simple setting you can either have on or off.

Thoughts?

[PL1-Arcade]

I feel like maybe a better approach would be to get rid of all options and just have a single "Debug" option. It will just stay on until you turn it off. Debug on = Slow Motion + Frames + No Blackout + No Mute. It would be a simple setting you can either have on or off.

Thoughts?

I think that changing the menu wording from "Debug Mode" to something like "Show Frames", "Show Frame Count", "Show Current Frame Count", "Display Frame Count", or "Frame Count Display" might make the purpose of that setting a bit clearer.

It might also be a good idea to remove a few options from the menu and/or rearrange them like this:

---

• Show Frame Count
  Most used option. Put it at the top of the menu.
• Slow Motion during Frame Count
  2nd most used option. Definite keeper. I often switch between slow motion and throttled (100%) while finding frame values to get the most efficient combination of speed and accuracy.
• Blackout during startup
  Keeper. There are several use cases for this option.
  =================== Keep the lower part of the menu as-is.
• Frames to skip for ROMname
• Normal startup frames
• Use alternate frames for a soft reset
• Soft reset frames
  ===================
• Return to Previous Menu

---

The two current menu entries that probably should be removed are:

• Mute audio (There might be an edge case for using this, but I can't imagine it.)

• Fallback to parent rom frames (I can't think of any use case for disabling this option.)

I mostly agree on your proposed features for Frame Count mode:

• Frame Count display (always on)
• No Blackout (gotta see the game video to figure out the correct frame value)
• No Mute (gotta hear the sound to figure out the correct frame value)
• Either slow motion or throttled (100%) frame rate as selected in the menu. Do not switch from slow motion to throttled when frame value is reached. Full speed un-throttled is WAY too fast for accurately finding frame values. Slow motion is too slow on systems with a long bootup.

Scott

[Jakobud]

What about this:

And then if you enable debug mode:

And the general idea is that you have to enable debug mode in order to toggle any of those other options. And if you enable debug mode (which requires you to restart the game) it will just stay on forever until you disable it (and again, restart the game). It won't turn off when you hit a frame target (if there is one).

My thought process is that it keeps the options simple but still flexible when you need it to be.

[PL1-Arcade]

1. Sorry, Jake, but having the menu change like that based on the "Debug" mode setting makes it more confusing. Frequent users will probably figure it out, but many new/infrequent users will get lost. Better to simplify and clarify the menu entry wording.

2. Calling it "Debug Mode" is confusing because users who want to add/change frame skip values for games aren't trying to debug anything.
   Q: Why do users need this menu entry?
   A: Show me the frame count! [/Jerry Maguire]
   To clearly convey that idea, the wording for that menu item should be some variation of "Count frames", "Show frames", "Show frame count", "Show current frame count", "Display frame count", "Frame count display", etc.

3. Consider changing "Blackout screen" to "Blackout screen during normal startup" to convey that the screen won't be blacked out during frame count mode.

4. What is the use case for the "Fallback to parent rom frames" and "Mute audio" menu entries?
   Is there any situation where someone would want to disable these settings?
   If there isn't any, why keep the menu entries?
   If you want to keep the functions, while simplifying the menu, keep the lines for them in the easy-to-edit config.ini file or use suggested menu layout 2 below.

5. Suggested menu layout 1.
   ===================
   Skip Startup Frames
   ===================
   Count frames (Requires ROM restart) Y/N
   Slow motion for counting frames Y/N
   Blackout screen during normal startup Y/N
   ===================
   Frames to skip for ROM: galaga
   Normal startup frames
   Use alternate frames for a soft reset Y/N
   Soft reset frames (line only visible if enabled)
   ===================
   Return to Previous Menu
   ===================

6. Suggested menu layout 2.
   This keeps all of the options available through the menu, but normally hides the three advanced options Blackout, Mute, and Fallback.
   ===================
   Skip Startup Frames
   ===================
   Count frames (Requires ROM restart) Y/N
   Slow motion for counting frames Y/N
   Show advanced options Y/N
   ===================
   (This menu section only visible if Advanced options is enabled)
   Advanced options
   Blackout screen during normal startup Y/N
   Mute audio during normal startup Y/N
   Fallback to parent rom frames Y/N
   ===================
   Frames to skip for ROM: galaga
   Normal startup frames
   Use alternate frames for a soft reset Y/N
   Soft reset frames (line only visible if enabled)
   ===================
   Return to Previous Menu
   ===================

Scott

[Jakobud]

How about this

[PL1-Arcade]

Looks great with two minor corrections:

1. Change the blackout line to read "Blackout screen during normal startup" since blackout should never be active when in Show Frame Count mode. You gotta see the game video to know what frame value to use. I assume the default is set to "Yes" for this option since that is what most users want from the plugin during normal startups -- blackout the video junk, mute the audio, and fast-forward until you get to the good stuff.

2. The acronym "ROM" should be upper case and the ROMname provided by MAME will be lowercase for the "Frames to skip for ROM: galaga" line. This follows standard formatting for MAME.

The only other menu entry that you might consider adding is "Mute audio during normal startup Y/N" below "Blackout".

• If you add that, you could have the "Show Frame Count" mode options next to the "Frames to skip" section of the menu and move the "normal startup" mode options "Blackout" and "Mute" to just above "Return to previous menu" like below.
  ===================
  Skip Startup Frames
  ===================
  Show Frame Count (Requires ROM restart) Y/N
  Slow motion when showing frame count Y/N
  ===================
  Frames to skip for ROM: galaga
  Normal startup frames
  Use alternate frames for a soft reset Y/N
  Soft reset frames (line only visible if enabled)
  ===================
  Blackout screen during normal startup Y/N
  Mute audio during normal startup Y/N
  ===================
  Return to Previous Menu
  ===================

Scott

[Jakobud]

Okay here is where I ended up

and

I really thought about what you said. I agree I don't think there is really a use case where anyone would ever want to not blackout the screen or not mute the audio during normal startup.

So with the above approach, slow motion, blackout screen and mute audio options only ever apply if you are showing frame count. You can toggle them so you can see/hear stuff if you want.

But if you are doing a normal startup, not showing frames, the behavior is that blackout and mute just happens automatically and cannot be toggled off.

And again, if enable "show frames" it will continue showing frames until you turn that option off and restart the game.

[PL1-Arcade]

I like the wording Frames to skip for "smashtv". 😃

I really thought about what you said. I agree I don't think there is really a use case where anyone would ever want to not blackout the screen or not mute the audio during normal startup.

Umm, that's actually the opposite of what I said in my last post. 😕

I figure that the blackout and mute functions would never be used during "Show Frame Count" mode since you need to see and hear the game while looking for a frame value.

I agree that users will almost always want blackout and mute enabled during "Normal startup" mode, but there are a few reasons that someone might want to disable one of these during normal startup.

The example that comes to mind is if someone makes a dedicated Deco Cassette system. The boot time for that system without SSF can be over 3-1/2 minutes. For example, Flying Ball (cflyball,12300) takes 13 seconds to boot using SSF on my system. Disabling blackout would allow the user to see the 3:33 countdown timer in fast forward instead of wondering if the game crashed or the system got hung up on something.

For any readers who aren't familiar with the Deco Cassette system, here's a video of Lock 'n' Chase which is one of the faster loading games.
It takes 2:27 from power on (start of video) to where you can coin up and play.
With the SSF plugin it only takes 9 seconds to get there (clocknch,8508), but that's long enough for some people to get confused or impatient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8fgcr-S1Sg

There might be other edge cases for disabling blackout or mute during "Normal startup" mode, so it makes sense to leave them available in the menu like the example below from your next-to-the-latest post with these two or three minor changes:

1. Use your new wording Frames to skip for "smashtv"
2. Change the blackout line text to "Blackout screen during normal startup"
3. Add "Mute audio during normal startup" below blackout (optional, but recommended)

Scott

[Jakobud]

Ah got it now okay. I misunderstood before. I'm almost going full circle here :-)

[PL1-Arcade]

Sometimes a little shakeup like this makes people question things that they might have previously not considered and clarify their thinking on why things are done the way they are done. 🤔

As long as the discussion leads to a better/easier/clearer user experience, it's worth it. 👍

Scott