re:DEI, a community of hateful and genocidal speech

[JohnAlexINL]

RE: X11Libre/xserver#82 X11Libre/xserver#81 X11Libre/xserver#80 X11Libre/xserver#78 X11Libre/xserver#40 and the concern around reactionarism being what XLibre will be.
This is just a snippet showing off exactly what a community devoid of the dreaded DEI-boogyman looks like.

Then Leave.
First, the leftards made everything political.
Second, most laws being passed are not because of your existence, but because of your behavior. If you cannot control yourself, you should be put away from civilized society (institutionalized), and if it still does not work, being put down is an option. Want to be left alone? Behave in a civilized way.
Third, you don't have a right to be accepted in every group. Unless people beat you up, harm is a mental construct. Get a thicker skin.
Fourth, its entirely reasonable to demand things be kept as non-political as possible. Activists start by dismantling these constraints in order to spread their bullshit around. You're the one being unreasonable.
Fifth, and last. Discrimination is a sign of high intelligence. Between a turd and a sandwich, its good to be able to discriminate before eating.

TLDR: I don't care if you are a degenerate, as long as you keep it to yourself. This is a setting for software development, not for group therapy nor for flamboyant personalities to shine.

Originally posted by @UnD3RsC0R3 in #40

@X11Libre if the edgy and exclusionary language in the README is as important to you as the community discussions suggest, then by all means. Just understand that it will mean lower-quality code (if any) from a small, bigoted core of developers more focused on calling people slurs than running tests or actually contributing code.

[robertkirkman]

I am a liberal so I will use the woke DEI freedesktop.org and the conservatives can use the anti-woke anti-DEI Xlibre. it makes sense to me.
As I understand it, there are also woke DEI Wayland compositors and anti-woke anti-DEI Wayland compositors, so it is important for each X11 server to also be a containment zone for each political position.

[xgui4]

welp ... i am centrist ... i am caught in the middle with no "safe zone" 😭

[gkshenaut]

I came because I'm very interested in the continuation of X11, but then I saw this DEI comment and Just Don't Get It. Is this a serious project or not?

[top-master]

I see many possibly paid-actors creating tickets here and there.
Damn be big-corp money.

The OP'er (original poster) of this ticket is using the words "hateful and genocidal" in an insulting manner and is by doing that going against this repo's sole policy: "treating others nicely".

Hence, close this ticket as soon as possible and maybe even ban such OP'ers please, thanks.

[miranda]

LOL "paid-actors". Right wingers are always so conspiracy-brained.

[ToneyFoxxy]

LOL "paid-actors". Right wingers are always so conspiracy-brained.

Occam's razor; it is less likely that you actually believe what you say. Paid actor is among the most generous options

[reaperx7]

I'm politically right leaning myself, but my problem lies mainly with the corporate backing of FreeDesktops and Gnome by Red Hat, and the lack of morals by Red Hat developers to allow FOSS to flourish by accepting patches and maintaining code they have on their servers.

I left my politics at the Login button.

If Red Hat wants to be the world's biggest bunch of anti-FOSS ass hats, then they and their developers, all of them, need to be ran out of all FOSS software development, their projects forked and seized, and told you're done...

I'd sooner now trust a Microsoft employee coding for FOSS than a Red Hat employee.

[JohnAlexINL]

I think the issue here is really simple: will @X11Libre choose to foster an open and collaborative community, or is it going to favor and enable hateful speech and ingroup culture-war nonsense?

Given that, on the tin, the point of this whole shindig is free and open source software maintained by community collaboration, one makes a hell of a lot more sense than the other.

[reaperx7]

We need a community fostering software development, not politics. We should leave politics at the login button. The best inclusive community is the one where people mind their own personal business and focus on the task at hand.

[miranda]

We need a community fostering software development, not politics. We should leave politics at the login button.

Yeah but the problem is, instead of leaving them at the login button... they were left at the README.

[jayjay73]

@JohnAlexINL you really wanted that word in a top level discussion, didn’t you? For what purpose? In the hopes Github / MS see it and step in?

I can’t find any mentions of it in the project. Can you point out where you found it mentioned?

[JohnAlexINL]

it's in the comment quoted in the post, you would know that if you had read it.

I like this project on the tin. I also think the ingroup anti-woke™ nonsense is going to drive away most people seriously interested in and capable of meaningful contribution.

If what we want is collaborative software maintained by a meritocratic community and not constrained to the whims of political activists and 3rd party organizations, then maybe the easiest place to start is to not actively foster cultural ingroup dogwhistles and unambiguous hate speech

[smj-cc]

Is it possible that you have misidentified the people who are most capable of meaningful contribution?
Time will tell.

[MennilTossFlykune]

Does this project really need people who are so insistent on forcing their way into spaces where they are not wanted?

[progzone122]

Can someone briefly explain to me what all these people are complaining about?
I don't live in countries where this kind of DEI propaganda is at its peak, but I don't like the idea that DEI is somehow influencing projects (Nobody should give a damn about it at all).
I take it this project will not impose DEI, which is now being actively imposed to the detriment of development? What's wrong with that?

[progzone122]

Может ли кто-нибудь кратко объяснить мне, на что жалуются все эти люди? Я не живу в странах, где подобная пропаганда DEI находится на пике, но мне не нравится идея, что DEI каким-то образом влияет на проекты (никто вообще не должен обращать на это внимания). Я так понимаю, что этот проект не будет навязывать DEI, который сейчас активно навязывается в ущерб развитию? Что в этом плохого?

I took that to mean “This project won't have what they're trying to push in the same AAA games now”

[JustJinxed]

Can someone briefly explain to me what all these people are complaining about? I don't live in countries where this kind of DEI propaganda is at its peak, but I don't like the idea that DEI is somehow influencing projects (Nobody should give a damn about it at all). I take it this project will not impose DEI, which is now being actively imposed to the detriment of development? What's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with not adopting something. Some people have a very warped idea of what DEI is, from seeing it applied in business and hearing about it on the news. That entire argument and buzzword shouldn't even be here. If I had to list all the things I don't adopt in my other projects, I'd be busy listing them, for years.

Silly opinion of mine: I'd just take it out. Focus on what we do, not what we don't do. I don't see Enrico or others being a root of some problem, but it leaves a silly door open, that doesn't need to be there. The buzzword means too many different things, to too many people.

[progzone122]

Can someone briefly explain to me what all these people are complaining about? I don't live in countries where this kind of DEI propaganda is at its peak, but I don't like the idea that DEI is somehow influencing projects (Nobody should give a damn about it at all). I take it this project will not impose DEI, which is now being actively imposed to the detriment of development? What's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with not adopting something. Some people have a very warped idea of what DEI is, from seeing it applied in business and hearing about it on the news. That entire argument and buzzword shouldn't even be here. If I had to list all the things I don't adopt in my other projects, I'd be busy listing them, for years.

Silly opinion of mine: I'd just take it out. Focus on what we do, not what we don't do. I don't see Enrico or others being a root of some problem, but it leaves a silly door open, that doesn't need to be there. The buzzword means too many different things, to too many people.

Okay, now I understand a why people are so outraged.
It's just that right now the definition of DEI has been very badly fucked up by mega corporations literally engaging in discrimination.
Yeah, it would be better to not mention this shit at all, any mention of diversity and gender pisses me off, just write the damn code.

[oleid]

@felsonfleck wrote:

what does any of this have to do with drawing things on a screen?

That's the whole point. Hence, there should be no politics in the project readme in either direction. Yet, the way it reads the project could as well be named X11MAGA. And this reflects poorly on the project.

[drwho495]

This comment section is such a good reasoning to get rid of the dei comment. Anyone who sees that instantly thinks of people who respond like some of those defending the "anti dei" statements and is an instant reason for many to work on Wayland instead. Thank you to those who have not used blatantly untrue straw man arguments on both sides.

The project isn't even anti Wayland lmao. You can work on Wayland if you want no one cares.

im aware, wayland was an example

[jamesbiederbeck]

X11Libre if the edgy and exclusionary language in the README is as important to you as the community discussions suggest, then by all means. Just understand that it will mean lower-quality code (if any) from a small, bigoted core of developers more focused on calling people slurs than running tests or actually contributing code.

You're all welcome to submit PRs to my project in my repo, with dei in its name. It's like this project, but downstream, and the license mandates that you cannot upstream to this project because our project has dei and this one doesn't because it's BAD and we don't want to accidentally give you or BAD dei code or make you gay by accident.

[JohnAlexINL]

Lazy self-promotion is one thing, maybe I'd even respect it if you did anything about the README or wrote a single commit. piss right off

[drwho495]

Lazy self-promotion is one thing, maybe I'd even respect it if you did anything about the README or wrote a single commit. piss right off

I think he is trolling. You cannot implement dei into an open source project, it can only be successful in a large corporation where you need to find a suitable employee that is ranked at the top for merits

[flossy83]

X11Libre if the edgy and exclusionary language in the README is as important to you as the community discussions suggest, then by all means. Just understand that it will mean lower-quality code (if any) from a small, bigoted core of developers more focused on calling people slurs than running tests or actually contributing code.

You're all welcome to submit PRs to my project in my repo, with dei in its name. It's like this project, but downstream, and the license mandates that you cannot upstream to this project because our project has dei and this one doesn't because it's BAD and we don't want to accidentally give you or BAD dei code or make you gay by accident.

So the dei codebase isn't bad, but the non dei codebase is?

[drwho495]

what the hell is a "dei codebase"

if contributors are only allowing people of a certain race contribute, then that is just discrimination and not DEI.

[smj-cc]

What is it called when "contributors are only allowing people of a certain" political ideology to contribute, and are claiming that this is "DEI"?

[oleid]

So the dei codebase isn't bad, but the non dei codebase is?

Stating your political agenda in the main project readme is bad.

[miranda]

DEI is about putting under or unqualified people into positions to make the entity look diverse. It's actually very demeaning to the people brought in, because they lack the skills to contribute properly or meet the mission statement.

This is a lie that right-wingers love to spread. DEI is about circumventing systemic bigotry so EQUALLY QUALIFIED people don't get passed over. DEI has nothing to do with putting unqualified people anywhere.

And anyway, by DEFAULT good changes/additions to code are always accepted by FOSS projects. There's not a finite number of positions like in a paid job position. So there's no need for the nonsense anti-DEI culture war garbage in READMEs, unless you have a right-wing political agenda outside the scope of FOSS development that you are trying to express... which is what people are assuming from the toxic README.

[smj-cc]

"People are not fungible. If they are free, they are not equal. If they are equal, they are not free."

[drwho495]

DEI is about putting under or unqualified people into positions to make the entity look diverse. It's actually very demeaning to the people brought in, because they lack the skills to contribute properly or meet the mission statement.

This is a lie that right-wingers love to spread. DEI is about circumventing systemic bigotry so EQUALLY QUALIFIED people don't get passed over. DEI has nothing to do with putting unqualified people anywhere.

And anyway, by DEFAULT good changes/additions to code are always accepted by FOSS projects. There's not a finite number of positions like in a paid job position. So there's no need for the nonsense anti-DEI culture war garbage in READMEs, unless you have a right-wing political agenda outside the scope of FOSS development that you are trying to express... which is what people are assuming from the toxic README.

First off... Equality is a lie. There is NEVER equality ever, anywhere. There's an old saying that goes:

"All are equal, but some are more equal than others." George Orwell - Animal Farm.

Orwell shows the lie that is equality plain and simple for all to see. If you're a girl, are you equal to a boy? No. Your genetics are different, your bodily functions are different. Everything about you is different. You are not equal in any way. Even twins are not equal. One is going to have anomalies that make them different from their twin. So twins are ever perfectly equal. Equality requires PERFECTION. And last I checked, humanity is far from perfect.

DEI is about creating a diverse group based solely on diversity, not merit in any capacity. Bigotry is a victimization mentality meant to tell one group "you got passed over because you're XYZ" but then fails to mention "you really got passed over because you lack qualifications in this field". You pass over a 20 year skilled C coder because he's white, just to have a fresh from high school unskilled black kid on the team to say "look at us! We hire black people" is extremely demeaning to any ethnicity people because you hire people based on skin color, not merit or value. They feel worthless in the workplace because they can't do the job, yet they keep getting told "you have to stay to make us look good".

So your comment about DEI being positive is complete bullshit.

DEI has no place anywhere in a professional setting, large or small. You NEVER place people based on diversity assets. You place people based on merit and experience. It doesn't matter if that person means your workforce is all white, all black, all latino, or all asian. It means you hire for qualifications and skill. You hire the best candidate.

Let me start by saying, you have no proof for the latter part of the conversation.

The first part is genuinely hilarious, because you are quoting an anti-communist book from the pro communist view point. If you have actually read the book then you will know that the people that are more equal than others are the authoritarian leaders. This just shows how pro authoritarian you really are if you take this viewpoint. Of course everyone is equal, we are all people. Looking at small properties like the color of our skin and declaring that they are different is stupid as hell. And you can make the argument that DEI does that, but really doesn't. It focuses on social constructs like gender. Putting "DEI" in an open source project makes literally no sense. Judging if a contributor can submit a PR based on merit also makes no sense.

The reason we want the anti-Dei message to be removed IS NOT because we want DEI in a project, since it cannot function properly here, we are just trying to save your project from losing contributors who see you as scumbags. You might be, based of what I've seen in this thread.

[drwho495]

"People are not fungible. If they are free, they are not equal. If they are equal, they are not free."

You really need to define what you mean by equal. My definition is that you are equal in meaning of life. This is something that's defined in religious texts like the Bible.

[bassie1995]

DEI is about putting under or unqualified people into positions to make the entity look diverse. It's actually very demeaning to the people brought in, because they lack the skills to contribute properly or meet the mission statement.

This is a lie that right-wingers love to spread. DEI is about circumventing systemic bigotry so EQUALLY QUALIFIED people don't get passed over. DEI has nothing to do with putting unqualified people anywhere.
And anyway, by DEFAULT good changes/additions to code are always accepted by FOSS projects. There's not a finite number of positions like in a paid job position. So there's no need for the nonsense anti-DEI culture war garbage in READMEs, unless you have a right-wing political agenda outside the scope of FOSS development that you are trying to express... which is what people are assuming from the toxic README.

First off... Equality is a lie. There is NEVER equality ever, anywhere. There's an old saying that goes:

"All are equal, but some are more equal than others." George Orwell - Animal Farm.

Orwell shows the lie that is equality plain and simple for all to see. If you're a girl, are you equal to a boy? No. Your genetics are different, your bodily functions are different. Everything about you is different. You are not equal in any way. Even twins are not equal. One is going to have anomalies that make them different from their twin. So twins are ever perfectly equal. Equality requires PERFECTION. And last I checked, humanity is far from perfect.

DEI is about creating a diverse group based solely on diversity, not merit in any capacity. Bigotry is a victimization mentality meant to tell one group "you got passed over because you're XYZ" but then fails to mention "you really got passed over because you lack qualifications in this field". You pass over a 20 year skilled C coder because he's white, just to have a fresh from high school unskilled black kid on the team to say "look at us! We hire black people" is extremely demeaning to any ethnicity people because you hire people based on skin color, not merit or value. They feel worthless in the workplace because they can't do the job, yet they keep getting told "you have to stay to make us look good".

So your comment about DEI being positive is complete bullshit.

DEI has no place anywhere in a professional setting, large or small. You NEVER place people based on diversity assets. You place people based on merit and experience. It doesn't matter if that person means your workforce is all white, all black, all latino, or all asian. It means you hire for qualifications and skill. You hire the best candidate.

Average conservative interpretation of that Animal Farm quote. Funnily enough it's not supposed to be a rule, Orwell's actual viewpoint, and is exactly what the book is against.

[smj-cc]

Average conservative interpretation of that Animal Farm quote. Funnily enough it's not supposed to be a rule, Orwell's actual viewpoint, and is exactly what the book is against.

Having read the book, I feel safe to say you are absolutely correct. Orwell did not believe that some are "more equal" to others. Most who read this book, understanding the context within which it was written, recognize it as an argument against the absurdities and atrocities of the soviet communist revolution, and it's resultant government.

[oleid]

So the dei codebase isn't bad, but the non dei codebase is?

Stating your political agenda in the main project readme is bad.

The political agenda of not wanting to enforce a racist political DEI agenda?

Call it what you want, but it is politics.

That and the other obvious MAGA references and the conspiracy theory stuff.

Anyway, there thousands of FOSS projects with obvious political agendas. I am sure that on many of them you are complaining about it in an issue right?

Only projects I potentially consider contributing to.
But sure, give me links and quote you're referring to, the I go complain, if the project is important enough to me.

[AndersonTorres]

That and the other obvious MAGA references and the conspiracy theory stuff.

Conspiracies and MAGA are very bipartisan things in US politics.

[oleid]

Is it just me, or did a lot of the comments get deleted?
I mean, the deleted comments were in many cases far right-wing conspiracy stuff, but still...

[darkhog]

The only thing that should matter for open source software project is how good someone is as a coder. Not the color of the skin, sexual orientation or the gender (whatever that might be). By contrast, DEI policies are exclusive based on the gender, sexual orientation. and race, the only difference between DEI/affirmative action and something like Jim Crow, is the race/gender being discriminated against.

The only way to stop racism is to stop caring or noticing race. Color of someone's skin should be as meaningless characteristic as color of someone's hair (or eyes).

[vvbudh]

Why do you think the only way to stop racism is to not see color? The color of peoples’ skin is a real thing. You can’t just ignore it. 🤔

[drwho495]

again thats not really what DEI does and is not why compaining about it is only bad for the project

[darkhog]

Why do you think the only way to stop racism is to not see color? The color of peoples’ skin is a real thing. You can’t just ignore it. 🤔

Maybe we should start discriminate based on hair color too then. Have you seen any gingers lately?

The point is, dumbass, to make skin color as irrelevant as hair or eye color. And the only way it's going to happen is if we stop caring about how people look and start caring about their personalities.

[AndersonTorres]

The color of peoples’ skin is a real thing. You can’t just ignore it. 🤔

Blind people do this every single time.

[drwho495]

Why do you think the only way to stop racism is to not see color? The color of peoples’ skin is a real thing. You can’t just ignore it. 🤔

i know YOU cant but i can

[reaperx7]

My thoughts on DEI all boils down to this...

Equality is a myth spun by the power hungry. No two people will ever be equal. Equality is about destroying the individual, desecration of the self, and contemptness for non-conformity. Equality is utopian. Utopia does not exist, nor can. Utopia and Equality require perfection.

"All are equal, but some are more equal than others." George Orwell.

[ovlx]

Nothing you said really detracts from equity of healthcare outcomes being preferrable, other than being worried about how its going to be paid for , personally I would rather pay some taxes , rather than see homeless schizophrenics living on the sidewalk on my way to work( assuming my taxes are actually used properly anyway), but maybe thats just me.

and a fair warning, having a selfish attitude is a great way to be cast into the fire to wither and burn, by your own community.

[smj-cc]

Nothing you said really detracts from equity of healthcare outcomes being preferrable

The h*ll it doesn't. "Preferable" is a judgement call, and I've stated my judgement. Not preferable. Don't want it. At any price. Including free. Not interested. Hospitals literally have nothing I want.

personally I would rather pay some taxes

Good, then you should do that.

but maybe thats just me.

No maybes about it.

and a fair warning, having a selfish attitude is a great way to be cast into the fire to wither and burn, by your own community.

I don't think you have any clue what my community looks like. There's nothing "selfless" about forcing others to pay for things. My community is based on charity and good will, not theft and redistribution. In my community, inter human relationships are voluntary. And because they know the generous had a choice, the recipients of charity are grateful, instead of entitled. And because they are not selfish, they work towards no longer being a burden to their community, wherever they can.

[bassie1995]

Majority of people are willing to use taxes to fund healthcare in the modern world even if it doesn't directly benefit them

If you live in a democracy, that's relevant. I live in a republic, so it's not. In a republic, individuals have rights that a majority is proscribed by constitutional law from violating. This means that moneys levied by taxation cannot be spent in support of unconstitutional objectives. The 10th amendment to the constitution here ensures that federal government has no jurisdiction outside those specifically enumerated within said constitution. Healthcare is outside the jurisdiction of federal government here.

the security of knowing you won't owe $400k for a surgery you will probably need at some point in your life is worth it, tyranny of the majority I suppose in your case

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't "worth it". That's a judgement call. Personally, I do not subscribe to "insurance" as desirable, just as being in debt is not desirable. I would rather manage my own risk. That's just me. You're free to do you, as long as you don't try to force me to do you.

"Republic is not democracy" is very typical, but untrue. They are not mutually exclusive, FYI.

[darkhog]

Hospitals literally have nothing I want.

Obviously I don't wish it upon anyone, but you'd change your tune very quickly if you or someone you love was hit with cancer that requires hundreds of thousands to treat in the US.

[smj-cc]

Hospitals literally have nothing I want.

Obviously I don't wish it upon anyone, but you'd change your tune very quickly if you or someone you love was hit with cancer that requires hundreds of thousands to treat in the US.

No. I would not. I know you think I'm delusional, but respectfully, you know nothing about me, or the basis or depth of my convictions, or my knowledge of modern medicine and it's limitations. For men of honor, there are things much worse than death.

As for treatment of cancer, your estimate of cost is telling.... it's not hundreds of thousands, it's unknown and unlimited. As new and exponentially more expensive treatments are introduced, costs asymptotically approach infinity. I will refer you to Thomas Sowell: "Compared to what? At what cost? What hard evidence do you have?"

Human resources are limited, and always will be. Costs matter, often they are the only thing that matters.

Insurance does not magically pay for things, it distributes the cost among the insured, insuring that no one can go bankrupt, unless everyone goes bankrupt. And by removing the risk from the individual, it incentivizes the individual to take more risk. It inevitably leads, eventually, to it's own collapse as everyone goes bankrupt. This principle is playing out now globally. What cannot continue, will not continue.

[xieyuheng]

[b-aaz]

Hmmm..., struggle between classes ... .
I have that when working with C++.

[xieyuheng]

Haha, I use the good old proletarian C.

See this: Scalable C

[AndersonTorres]

@xieyuheng You are the one that made this PR? Nice!

booksbyus/scalable-c@5d62208

[reaperx7]

DEI as a political idea is focusing on the wrong dimension of the struggle:

sex race color
proletariat
bourgeoisie
The real struggle is between classes.

Free software is the proletariat's fight against bourgeoisie.

Ah the proletariat and bourgeois... The never ending cycle of destruction and upheaval that leads to perpetual stagnation because nobody can ever get ahead long enough to matter... Unless you're a dictator using Communism as a ruse to enrich yourself and consolidate power using deception and misinformation.

[darkhog]

...and your modus operandi is famine. No thanks.

[xgui4]

pls if you can't bring my identity (you already know which one, i wont repeat as it is not important to that discussion) to the new readme, do not add any "identity politic/war" such as "gender" , "skin color" etc. in the new readme, i do not want any exclusion, if you want one, then you must add them then you need to write explicitely that all identity even the majority are welcome are accepted. i do not want to be exclude by woke extreme left politic again that competely ingnore my difference.

[bonkmaykrQ]

People coming into this board to just stir the pot and intentionally misinterpret the clearly outlined, pro-diversity goal as written in the README, using the "DEI" misnomer to "concern troll" as they like to call it...

If you have nothing helpful or objective to say then you should just keep your mouth shut. Crybullying will not get you far in any software engineering space that takes itself seriously. This is not the first thread OP has opened about this topic and I would consider it to be worthless spam.

[xgui4]

well i do not really see as safe place though I was discriminated of my neurodivergence in #104

[xgui4]

https://github.com/orgs/X11Libre/discussions/34#discussioncomment-13741357

[xgui4]

firstly, they are no genocide mention or hate in the readme at all , if you think they is then you are probably delusional or extremely biased of the far Left or you are writing big word for attention or for making rhe project look bad for some reason.

secondly,
but this community have a problem of rejecting any form of inclusion which could think for marginalized individuals like neurodivergent individual like myself to not feel safe.