XLibre
Culture War Nonsense #36
Replies: 24 comments 15 replies
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Yes, exactly. The README is super toxic and it's getting a lot of attention. Not a good look if you want the project to succeed (which I do, I'm Xorg till I die). Why can't this project just have a professional UNIX mission statement? It's alienating a lot of people who would otherwise be supportive. If you're intentionally trying to shun people who believe that DEI is a positive thing, then you're strongly signaling that this is a right-wing project. It's not apolitical as you claim, no matter how many other words you put in the README. But, as you will see, there's a lot of people who are very committed to this anti-DEI stance, and think it's the best thing about the README, and take great joy in people being offended by it. And that tells you a lot about what kind of people they are. Doesn't seem like a good plan for revitalizing the Xorg that we all love and want to live on. |
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DEI is an explicitly marxist object, designed to call on popular liberal and post-liberal tropes. The statement in the project deftly denounces this marxist object, and substitutes it for a statement of measurable principles and values in plain language. Plain language and the excision of subversive political objects is the start of professionalism. Professionalism is impossible with DEI, as it is anti-professional. People who claim to be confused by a supposed contradiction between the plain statement of principles and the rejection of the object ‘DEI’ are to be treated with suspicion; they are either dangerously ignorant, and therefore unlikely to be productive, or they are playing the subversive game. If you actually care about professionalism, equal treatment, and merit, then you will reject DEI, because it is a construct directly opposed to all three of these values. |
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Perfectly put. For those who do not appreciate why DEI must be, explicitly, rejected: Marxists have a well-documented history of institutional infiltration. As summed-up by Tolkein: "Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy what has been invented or made by the forces of good." The purpose of Marxism is to destroy what is as a "necessary step to creating the Utopia". Utopia, meaning "Nowhere Place", is a fantasy that cannot exist because of human nature. Unfortunately, Socialists do not believe in human nature, instead explaining the previous failures of Socialism by reciting their article of faith: "Real Socialism has Never been Tried." I say 'article of faith' as Marxist/DEI/Socialists are, quite literally, and without hyperbole, religious zealots, pushing a 'join-us-or-die' non-theistic religion. Because they cannot create, they cannot 'just build something better' which would naturally attract others to join them. Thus, the only way they can attain the power they need to force people into their way of thinking, is to infiltrate existing organisations. This is why DEI is 'suddenly' an issue and why organisations (that wish to survive in the long-term) must actively reject DEI. |
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Oh, so DEI is not a dog whistle then? |
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That is not a "dogwhistle"; there is no subliminal intent or message. The slogan was specifically designed to be as clear and direct as possible -- to tell you what it means at face-value. The MAGA reference in the readme, however, is a dogwhistle. It's point is to express a subliminal and nonliteral idea; it is an ingroup signal. If you don't understand what a dogwhistle is, just say that. |
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DEI is an explicitly marxist object. No information is encoded in the name, and the real meaning is completely different from the plain meaning (the plain meaning being a mashup of popular liberal tropes, to make it palatable). |
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I can say it fake DEI behind the mask paid to do their shady job. Just saying nothing has change of their mask to adapt. One they ban the person account to update and refuse to update that was more than +3000 over the years yet there no response. Plus I seen there are 4 or more companies say that they will stop working on xorg packages which show they knew what happen behind the scene. yet they didn't promote this package. Show something up with red flags. Not too lazy in researching what they did it. It puzzle me one doing very nice example to post email list but I guess there no response to them. Show they were order to ignore the this solo dev to update change and fixed. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44217735 They ban the person as well will not say any nonsense for reason for ban show they are smart not get caught by the news media. If dig deep of the history of red hat and companies relate to xorg. I did quick search on red hat. They hate open src. In 2023, Red Hat implemented changes to its source code policies, leading to significant backlash within the open-source community. Red Hat's decision to restrict access to RHEL source code behind a paywall has raised concerns about adhering to the GPL license, which mandates that modifications and enhancements be shared. This shift has impacted downstream distributions like AlmaLinux and Rocky Linux, and some perceive it as a betrayal of open-source principles. The list goes on. |
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Explain to me how law suits like this one then come about: https://aflegal.org/victory-u-s-district-court-denies-ibms-motion-to-dismiss-afl-lawsuit-challenging-illegal-race-and-sex-discrimination/ Oh, I see. IBM did not use DEI with a hidden meaning but discriminated openly. Still bad, but technically not a dog whistle, eh?
Well, the court is of another opinion or it wouldn’t allow the case to proceed.
Yes. Rules for thee, but not for me. As if DEI is not a totally obvious in-group signal in the corporate hierarchy for…, well, read the above mentioned court case.
Lel. |
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Excerpt from what you're quoting:
A multibillion dollar corporation implementing a DEI program poorly doesn't mean DEI is somehow racist. What a fucking silly nonargument |
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This is not DEI done poorly, this is DEI done according to its actual meaning. The plain meaning of DEI is a clever smoke screen of popular liberal and post-liberal tropes, meant to disguise an explicitly neomarxist framework that involves, among other things, official racial discrimination against white and east asian people and sex discrimination against men. The HR people who have their fingerprints all over policies like this went to school and studied DEI; when these people say ‘DEI’, they don't mean the plain meaning of the buzzwords contained in the initialism, they mean what they learned in school (which is explicitly racist and sexist). The DEI word game is essentially the same as the ‘feminist’ word game, where defenders of ‘feminism’ call on the liberal trope of equality, without addressing the social context and ideology surrounding ‘feminism’; then when you say you aren't a ‘feminist’, the people who are in on the game will accuse you of not wanting women to have equivalent legal rights to men, or some such nonsense. The project's statement on this matter is very measured, and takes the necessary step of excluding the term ‘DEI’, substituting it for a statement of values and principles that can be assessed by an ordinary person based on the plain meaning of the words. |
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I believe that accessibility is one of the best things about open source, both from the perspective of what has made our community such a powerful cultural movement, and what makes our software as good as it is. And I believe this culture-war bullshit just discourages the very things that make Open Source a Community in the firstplace. If the best you can offer is "well, IBM bad, therefore reactionary dogwhistle good", then... well I can bring a horse to water, but I can't make you think. |
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No matter if The OP'er (original poster) of this ticket is using the word "bullshit" and is by doing that going against this repo's sole policy: "treating others nicely". Hence, close this ticket as soon as possible please, thanks. |
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No one actually takes DEI as face value - if that's the case, vaxry and Enrico wouldn't have been banned |
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you can be disagree with their interpretation of his code, or their claims about his behavior, or that he should have or shouldn't have been banned, but the only reason to misrepresent it like you have is because you have an agenda. |
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This post will not age well. |
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You don't even know what the word equity means. Amazing. |
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The 3 boxes are in the left picture as well. You are the dumbest person that has ever criticized this picture. Congratulations. |
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Equity does not belong to a codebase anyways. I don't care what you believe politics wise. It does not belong to a codebase. Enrico is overrepresented on his fork for a good reason, and he will be the main driver of success/failure of this project, because no one will realistically deliver more than him for the moment. What you should expect is Equality, meaning you're welcome to contribute to the project no matter what, but no special treatments or policies that would hinder the project development will take place. Which is already stated in the README. |
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This image has always been disingenuous. It implies that the shorter people need help because they're "lesser" than the tall guy, which can lead to a harmful justification that some races or groups are "lesser" than others and deserve handouts (the boxes). The real issue isn’t the people, it’s the system that’s uneven. The real fix is to lower the fence (the barrier of entry) so that any and all have a fair view. |
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Or build a higher fence, so those free-loaders have to pay their fair-share to maintain what others have created. Socialists always start from the assumption that they are entitled to the fruits of your labour; they will see a farmer eating and say "you should give me food", but would NEVER work in the fields to produce it themselves. |
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What the fuck does any of this have to do with the post? |
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None of these people should be watching the baseball game, they are trampling the lawn and should have gone to work and bought a ticket... This is an open source software project, we want to have software that works and does useful things, and the people who can help make that happen are welcome to do so. If you think somebody should be paid more for their work, then feel free to pay them! |
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Why are there Red Hat employees like @kittylyst lurking here? First you bully @metux into creating a fork and then you come here and think you have any fucking right to an opinion on how he runs it? |
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This comment from reddit accurately sums up your position:
Perhaps this can be better understood by some familiarity with Karl Marx; we must first have a revolt and a tyranny run by the workers before our (anti-) communist utopia can be realized 🤣 |
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No, no it isn't, because the E in DEI stands for equity which has a totally different meaning to equality. |
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In relation to the baseball image, that is incorrect, equity would have the man in the blue shirt's head below the fence line. Because for example when Harvard racially discriminates against applicants for having racial privilege, they lose their spot at the university, i.e they don't get to be part of the game anymore. |
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It's the internet. Every issue mentioned in this thread could have been solved by simply not attaching your code to your real name. Worked for me when I was too young to be considered worthy to contribute. Worked for countless people over the years that knew better than to put their real name on the internet. You created a problem for yourself and now you complain about it. Learning how to setup an email client and subscribe to the mailing lists was a "barrier of entry" for years. One that worked really well because it kept off topic nonsense like this thread off the lists. The only thing that matters is the code. |
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Indeed. "equity" is a financial bookkeeping term. It's the value that's would be left over if the company would sell off all its assets and pay down all debt (at the values they're currently accounted at). Taking care of a good equity value / rate is one of the primary duties of financial controllers. Too low equity rate can increase the risk of bankruptcy (if it goes to zero, the company is bankrupt), a too high one might be the time to do new investments or buy back stocks. That's all just dry and unemotional finance controlling and has nothing to do at all with how people treating each other. |
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Its also a healthcare term. equality is generally a bad thing in healthcare, you dont want to treat someone in the emergency ward having a heart attack equally to someone with a paper cut, so the term equity is used instead "equal access for equal need". Always a worthwhile consideration, e.g. new coders shouldn't be treated equally to experienced coders, but they should be treated equitably. Diversity and Inclusion are far more problematic. |
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The way 'equity' is used is a corruption of the term as applied in English law. Its original meaning is one of balance and fairness; of 'equitable outcomes', 'balance of the equities'. It is corrupted to mean equal outcomes, which is anathema to the Common Law (if you burn down my house, an equitable outcome would mean you paying for it to be rebuilt, even if that means you have to sell you own home). Socialists believe in Tabula Rasa - blank slate - that all people are born the same (a corruption of the Christian principle that all people are conceived with equal moral worth) and, therefore, everyone should have the same material conditions. (This, incidentally, is why Socialists are very keen on euthanasia - if someone is born blind, then obviously they do not have something that everyone else does. Because the only 'equitable' thing to do, would be to poke-out everyone else's eyes, they take the 'hard' decision to just murder 'deformed' babies. Sick, but true.) They then extend this by asserting that if someone does not have, it's because someone stole from them. (It is a complete non-sequitur, but logic and Socialists are like oil and water...) Because someone 'successful' only did so by 'stealing' from the rest, clearly, the 'successful' person, must have their things taken (stolen) from them. The correct version of this meme, is that the taller people have their legs cut-off, until they are the same height as the shortest person. |
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Seems like a lot of baseless assumption or generalizing of a low-popularity stance to apply it to everyone you don't like. This comment sounds like an unstable person wrote it, honestly. |
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So... your response is to state that the argument "seems baseless or generalizing", without a supportive argument, or the sense of a need for one, leaving me to conclude it's origins are emotional, then to dismiss the argument based on it's popularity, and finally conclude with an ad hominem attack. Did you think this would be persuasive? |
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Sounds like doesn't mean it is, just letting you know (hence FYI). I have no need to convince you of anything, luckily for us both. I think this is one of those time where one cannot be reasoned out of a position they did not reason themselves into, so why even try? That's fine, emotional responses to the world are valid in their own way. Also, I meant it seems you are generalizing some fringe idea to apply to a large group, that was not about your argument. Have a good day :) |
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As a FOSS project, we don't even have that fence at all. |
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Then there is literally no reason for a "stance" on DEI. It's just a dogwhistle that inserts politics into a project that, on the tin, doesn't need or want it. |
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DEI is a dogwhistle. By declaring freedom from it, the dogwhistle is being removed. Furthermore, without declaring explicit freedom from that specific recently troublesome and clearly insidious brand of activism, then the people who would push that sort of thing are liable to start pushing it again |
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I think the word 'DEI' should probably replaced by 'we accept all code based on its quality' or something that fundamentally means the same thing, but doesn't have that stigma. Putting DEI in any statement, whether in support or in opposition, is like using two high-tension wires as pull-up bars. It's just a toxic thing that gets attention from all the wrong people - people who don't contribute good code, but instead contribute political bullshit (case in point: yours truly) |
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DEI is an explicitly marxist object which gathers useful idiots by leaning on popular liberal and post-liberal tropes. It doesn't have a plain meaning, and no information is encoded in the name. The statement in the project works deftly around this word game, by denouncing DEI as an object, and substituting it for an actual actionable statement of principles and values, in plain language. Anyone who claims to be confused by the plain language should be treated with suspicion, because they are either dangerously ignorant (therefore not likely to be productive in any capacity), or they are playing the game (and so working to undermine productive people). |
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I think you raise this question because you cannot distinguish |
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If the project genuinely is welcoming of people regardless of background, then this project is "DEI", unambiguously. And if you're really against the "political activist" bullshit, then maybe you should also drop the culture-war nonsense?
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