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<meta name='author' content='Shwe Zan Aung, C.A.F. Rhys Davids'>
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<article id='kv1.8' lang='en'>
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<ul>
<li class='division'>Points of Controversy</li>
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<h1>1.8 Of Some of the Past and Future as still Existing</h1>
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<p><span class='add'>Controverted Point</span>: That (i.) some of the past exists, some does not; (ii.) some of the future exists, some does not.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> <a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.1' href='#pts-cs1.8.1'>PTS cs 1.8.1</a>(i.)Does the past exist? Some of it exists, you reply, some does not exist. You must then admit, <span class='add'>in equivalent terms</span>, that some of it has ceased, departed, passed away, utterly passed away; some of it has not ceased, departed, passed away, utterly passed away. Yet you deny this.</p>
<p><a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.2' href='#pts-cs1.8.2'>PTS cs 1.8.2</a>You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.</p>
<p><a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.3' href='#pts-cs1.8.3'>PTS cs 1.8.3</a>Again, referring to your declaration that the past exists in part, which of the past exists, which not?</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika:</span> Those past things of which the effect is not matured exist; those past things of which the effect is matured do not.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> But if you admit the existence of the former part, you must also admit the existence of the latter part, and also the existence of those past things that are without <a class='pc' id='pc102' href='#pc102'></a> effect. Again, if those past things of which the effect is matured are non-existent, no less are those past things of which the effect is not matured existent, as well as those things which are without effect. Once more, you say, those past things the effect of which is not matured exist, but might not such past things be said to have ceased? You admit this? But you cannot say that a thing both is and has ceased.</p>
<p><a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.4' href='#pts-cs1.8.4'>PTS cs 1.8.4</a>Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.</p>
<p>If, on the other hand, you say that those past things, the effect of which is matured, and which have ceased, do not exist, then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, and which have ceased, do not exist <span class='add'>contradicting what you have previously affirmed</span>, as well as those things which are without effect. </p>
<p>Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika:</span> <a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.5' href='#pts-cs1.8.5'>PTS cs 1.8.5</a>Is it then wrong to say “those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, exist”?</p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> Yes.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika: </span>Is it not a fact that past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, will become mature as to effect?</p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> Yes.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika: </span><a class='pc' id='pc103' href='#pc103'></a>If that be so, then it is surely not wrong to say that past things yet immature in their effect exist.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> Granting that such past things will become mature as to their effect, can they be said to exist? Yes, you say; but granting that they will in this respect mature, can they be said to be present? If you admit this, then, granting that present things will perish, are they non-existent?</p>
<p><a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.6' href='#pts-cs1.8.6'>PTS cs 1.8.6</a>(i.) To the question “Does the future exist”? you reply “some of it exists, some does not”. You must then admit <span class='add'>in equivalent terms</span> that some of it is born, produced, has happened, appeared, some of it not. Yet you deny this. Granting your declaration, do some things that have been inevitably determined exist, and some not? You are committed to this, and also to this: that some future things which are not inevitably determined exist, and some not.</p>
<p><a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.7' href='#pts-cs1.8.7'>PTS cs 1.8.7</a>Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.</p>
<p>With regard to those future things inevitably determined which you say “exist”, would you not admit that such future things have not been born? Yes? Then how can you say that things not yet born exist?</p>
<p><a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.8' href='#pts-cs1.8.8'>PTS cs 1.8.8</a>Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things <a class='pc' id='pc104' href='#pc104'></a> not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.</p>
<p><a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.9' href='#pts-cs1.8.9'>PTS cs 1.8.9</a><span class='add'>Kassapika:</span> Then is it wrong to say “those future things which are inevitably determined exist”?</p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> Yes.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika:</span> But will not future things which are inevitably determined happen?</p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> Yes.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika:</span> Surely then things inevitably determined exist.</p>
<p><a class='ref pts-cs' id='pts-cs1.8.10' href='#pts-cs1.8.10'>PTS cs 1.8.10</a><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> Granting that future things, if inevitably determined, will happen, do they exist?</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika:</span> Yes.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> Granting they will happen, are they present?</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika:</span> No <span class='add'>the future is not the present.</span></p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> I repeat my question.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika:</span> Yes <span class='add'>since, if they are existent, they are present.</span></p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> And granting that present things will cease, are they non-existent?</p>
<p><span class='add'>Kassapika:</span> Nay, that cannot truly be said.</p>
<p><span class='add'>Theravādin:</span> But you have already admitted this.</p>
<footer>
<p><cite class='book' translate='no'>The Points of Controversy</cite>, an English translation of the Pali Abhidhamma Kathāvatthu. Translated by <span class='author'>Shwe Zan Aung</span> and <span class='author'>C.A.F. Rhys Davids</span>. First published by Pali Text Society, <span class='publication-date'>1915</span>.</p>
<p>This SuttaCentral edition was prepared by <span class='editor'>Manfred Wierich</span> and <span class='editor'>Ven. Vimala</span> and proofread by <span class='editor'>Josephine Tobin</span>. Some changes were introduced:</p>
<ul>
<li>Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.</li>
<li>Cross-references were linked.</li>
<li>Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.</li>
<li>Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.</li>
<li>The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.</li>
</ul>
<p>This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here: <a href='http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/'>http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/</a></p>
<p>All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.</p>
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