Diamonds value source #26
Replies: 16 comments 39 replies
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Thanks for suggesting this. Its been a frequent debate on BitClout for sure. Im neither for nor against right now and interested in how the discussion evolves. To balance it out, here are benefits from having diamonds in creator coin:
Of course there is the challenge of diamond dust - but solutions are starting to be build for this (eg cloutcli). |
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this remains in place for sure. but my point was more about me sharing my coin feels more personal. It wanst about the notification / diamonds received list.
the amounts in general are so small and selling is hard - is it really being used for liquidity? maybe im exception but ive not sold any of received diamonds. also - upside from cc will be huge - consider DAU 1000x of today - eg twitter level. Todays cc received through diamonds will i think all show massive upside |
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I think this is the entire point. Diamonds COULD be used to be a valid and legit source of income for creators, but right now they just aren't viable and are just a way to have someone in your wallet. It's more like an appreciation token than actually supporting the creator. |
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It's a valid point to take into consideration.
If they go directly to your wallet, it would be instant liquidity. Furthermore, by not selling diamonds, a creator can have the diamonds as a placeholder in their profile to show who has supported them with the clout tally beside the sender profile (if I not mistaken you lose this reference as soon as you sell the diamonds). The liquidity aspect incentives content creation and avoid the problem of selling diamond mechanics. |
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re @HPaulson
i think they already are. Its just hard to liquidate. Thats where the friction is i think. If that was easier - it would solve the issue no? re @N0rdian
im not aware of that going away when cc is sold. In addition - creators will have nfts as an option of earning a very good income from their creations. NFTs are paid in clout. Ongoing for live as they are bought and sold. Diamonds are different - they are like tipping. Im still not convinced and of course dont need to be. Healthy discussion - good. Hopefully some others will contribute. |
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@tijno See my full comment below. This would solve one issue, but not the major two problems that diamonds in cc have. |
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I couldn't upvote this suggestion enough. Having diamonds be in Clout makes them a legitimate source of support. More info: By having diamonds be in the creator coin, the user is more hesitant to give such diamonds, as it's harmful. When giving you a diamond, which is a form of monetary support, you must sell that diamond in order to support yourself (Which, note, is a huge hassle in itself). When one sells such, you: A. Hurt the investments in that supporter's own coin, and B. Hurt the investors of the individual who supported you -- making the monetary loss of the supporter much greater than just the amount actually given in the diamond's value. Having the diamonds be in clout eliminates both A and B above, as well as give creators a viable way of gaining support from users. Diamonds, at scale and by using clout directly, could be a legitimate profit source for creators -- allowing them to monetize EVERY post, without a brand deal (Where as traditionally creators on social media must have a deal to monetize a post). |
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I agree with you. Diamonds in Creators own coin making loss of Investors. Diamonds in clout mean everyone has to buy certain amount of $Clouts . It's will increase the price of $clout. All Creators benefitted by getting clout. |
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Separate but related: If $clout appreciates relative to fiat, diamonds will be more far valuable. There will be far less diamonds given if the lowest is $1 USD. Presumably, the $0.01 diamond is the desired baseline. Maybe, and I'm sorry for this, we should peg it to USD but pay it in $clout? |
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I see 0 reason why we shouldn't do this, honestly |
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i'm more incline to agree with narrative that diamonds should not be seen a primary source of short term liquidity, but as a long term investment from both sides. having said that, im in favor of each user deciding on how they wish to handle their received diamonds. perhaps options should be given to sell diamonds, something like a x number of diamonds from all diamonds received to make the implementation easier, for now, but efficient. depending on the diamonds received, selling such a low amount as 1 diamond wouldnt make any impact on the creator that gave that diamond, but could make a huge impact on the receiver wallet ;) e.g a "global" sell option at the top of the creator diamonds area in which a user can input sell 1 diamond 0.01$ (from all received diamonds) sell 2 diamonds, etc i know tools like cloutcli are already addressing this which is really cool, but its not for the average user. |
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Possible solution: this would allow a choice and solve the problem. standard selection can be made in selection settings, standard is « give in creator coin » Great idea BTW @N0rdian |
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Ah, indeed, I re-read it and you are right, but if the receiver wants it converted into clout they could anyway, even thought is a manual activity now. I would argue that if the sender would want that the receiving side lists the sender coin in the receiver wallet, he is already forcing this upon the receiver. Which, IMO, I don't believe we should "enforce". |
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I agree with @HPaulson. This is better off as a sender setting in one of two ways and the sender should be able to choose that (not the receiver) As a sender of diamonds, these should be my options
From the Creator Side, not showing the really small CCs (say < 0.1$) and more importantly, selling all Creator Coins below a certain # in a bulk sweep, will allow users to keep their wallets clean without much hassle. |
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Okay, this is turning into an epic bikeshedding session. I'd argue to keep this simple. Limited time and resources and I'd wager the average creator doesn't want random peoples coins, so why waste time building that? There are countless more important features to build. There is already a mechanism to send creator coins to other users, so that can be utilized on the occasion a user wants to send another user their coins. Tipping in CLOUT is simple and intuitive. |
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If I have to make a choice, I'd go with |
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This feels like a no-brainer to me. Content creators who want to monetize using this tool want money, not someone's shitcoin (no offense to anyone - my coin is a shitcoin too). If content creators can not easily and quickly monetize using this tool the value proposition isn't there. It's already an inferior tool to Twitter in terms of search, reach, etc and adding friction by forcing them to sell random coins they're being gifted is a horrible UX (and certainly worse than being tipped USD on Twitter). |
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As BitClout scales not every user will be a "creator" and hold a creator coin. In fact, this may be the vast majority of users. Presumably these users will want to diamond and may be prolific diamonders but never post one post or video. So I wont refer to them pejoratively but I will say their creator coin is not going to be valuable. Pay it in clout but peg it to a USD amount . |
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Majority of people keep most of their $clout in Creator Coins and not in Bitclout. Having 💎 payouts in $clout would just decrease the number of 💎 Transactions. As far as the hassle involved in selling 💎s is considered, we just need a 'sell coins under $x' feature. Moreover, when a change like this is being made, people should think about the small creators that constitute 70% of the platform.
The supporter should have an option either way so I guess @tijno's idea of selecting mode of 💎 pay-outs is awesome! It has a ton of other benefits apart from just helping Creators monetise easily. |
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not my idea :) sidz https://bitclout.com/posts/929df2ae232294d25b898cd89d10c070c4805b28a0e6a45e42f95c1c82d6efaf agree with all you said though |
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This is a good point and an interesting theory. Thanks for your feedback! |
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I don't think it will modify this behaviour. The reason people allocate most of their funds to CCs is to maximise their investment. Increase in Creator Coins can easily beat the increase in Bitclout Price. Since this has close to 0 relation with Diamonds, everything will remain the same. |
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I agree with @N0rdian There is a lot of community 'drama' when someone sells the diamonds ! Also one added benefit i see is it would prevent people misusing the diamonds feature in creator coin by giving his/her friends a lot of diamonds and then asking him to sell/rug |
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This truly would be a way to appreciate people's content monetarily. For instance, there is an issue that I highlighted on Twitter a couple of days ago, "Black creators are striking on TikTok because they are not being compensated for their work. " - here's a link to the post https://twitter.com/marnimelrose/status/1413348035833200643 |
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In practice, it appears the selling "drama" only happens when the coin is worth a good amount. Even if 100 people give a single diamond, its too much work to "sell it" to cash out CLOUT. Idea 1May be at 5+ diamonds, there should be an option to receive clout instead of diamonds. Idea 2An alternative idea would be for creators to leave a tab on their account, so if their coins are sold, up to the wallet earmarked for it, they'll just be bought back by the creator, so the coin value stays the same. If they don't have wallet balance, the sale will simply run through affecting the coin value. |
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In the early days when I was thinking about tipping, crowdfunding and payments (see this post on bitclout) I wanted to see less creator coin activity and more direct sending of $clout. I also saw value in users being seen and listed as creator coin holders/stakers. I feel like this conversation has some parallels. If sending diamonds as $clout could also add you (the sender) to the recipient's "patron list" and also the sender could receive a "badge" (representing value tiers) seen in a list on their own profile next to each account name that recieved funds from you, it could be interesting and deal with some of the nuances of what is being discussed here. I tend to look at creator coins as a seperate thing when it comes to simple monetary funding actions and prefer that the coins don't get intermixed by default. We have "send creator coin" capability as stand-alone so why complicate tipping etc buttons/actions? |
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I have a feeling it may be hard to reach consensus on this proposal at either end of the opinions: Any views @N0rdian on what the next step is? Right now seems there are 2 option:
Not a great fan of either 1 or 2 - but interested to see if you have any other ideas? Also aware its only been 3 days since posting. Probably should give it at least a week :) Hopefully some input from core team will help to move this forward too. |
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Case 1 (Happy path)
Case 2 (Impaired path)
Case 3 (Today)
PS: If the creator coin buys dip into main wallet instead of diamond sub-wallet, there needs to be a setting to "enable it". |
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Thanks for the walkthrough - much clearer. However i think this way overcomplicated things and would put additional pressure on protocol and user education. Im not sure all this is warranted for an issue that is only affecting/seen by some users. |
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Apologies for the delay.
Agree. I think it would be great to count on the opinion of @diamondhands0 on this since the suggested change is related to the ethos and vision of the platform. |
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Agree about hearing the teams opinion on this for sure |
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Actually, new thing needs to be introduced, emeralds or something, because diamonds should be in CLOUT , but if someone likes another creator or/and investor so much, that wants this creator or / and investor to hold his coin, that should be emerald 😊 |
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We added Diamonds later. Why not just add a secondary item such as a 🚀 rocket (call it boost) that tips in CLOUT at This would lead way for new innovations. Aside from all the above issues mentioned, diamonds are also a way people can change accounts and boost themselves up on leaderboard, and sell out of their coin without notifying others. I think we should get rid of the daily diamond leaderboard. It fine for dapps, but since it's so rigged it's a bad look on main. Alternatively, maybe have it so a user can choose to autosell diamonds. And then when people diamond have some kind of icon that alerts that this user chooses to autosell diamonds under XYZ value, then that means we only accept diamonds as coin when over .1 for instance. I think removing the FAME factor for giving and receiving diamonds on a leaderboard would reduce people using moving diamonds for notoriety. Right now I know 2 accounts that just diamond each other to stay in the toplist. |
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This is brilliant. Seems like it would accomplish @tijno suggestion of letting the community pick how they want to reward/be rewarded but in a way that removes a layer of complexity. Granted, some will still receive cc's who would rather have $clout, but the sell option will remain. |
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I agree. I think Diamonds will still remain super attractive! They're fricken DIAMONDS ya know?! Plus, IOS is being a sucker about Diamonds. So even if we change it to clout, the 3 major ios apps won't be able to use it smh. Screw them. Give them rockets to contend with next while they figure out what to do with it. But yeah, it does seem to semi-resolve about 3 different unrelated issues here while avoiding several major new issues. |
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Also want to add that many dapps that use diamonds might be mad that we changed their business model. Such as gempay and others. Dapp developers don't get compensated when they use their time to make something and suddenly a change in the system breaks or disables their dapp. So I wouldn't change diamonds now that it is exists- even though I voted for it earlier in the poll I have second thoughts. I would suggest instead of doing a lot of speedbump work around the idea. and the other ideas of autoconverting amounts and such. removing leaderboards. Make a modal that alerts coinholders when a user diamonds more than 10% of their coin at a shot, etc. |
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Added more on the concept of Boost Pay in another CIP using QR codes. Note, I am not talented enough at Go or Angular to take on such an effort or alone. But I think this would actually work given we iron out any kinks. |
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Hi, good morning everyone!
I did my best to get as many responses as possible, and I thank those who recloted the survey. However, I'm not satisfied with the volume of responses since I would like more people in the community to participate in making a decision. On the other hand, and as mentioned in the past would be great to count on the input of someone from the core team around this matter (@diamondhands0, @maebeam, @lazynina, @bluepartyhat, @redpartyhat) PS: If we change the vote of @teambrixmusic to ('in Creator Coin') as per her comment, the final result would be:
Best regards, |
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I thought the idea was to get wider community input into this from the survey? This is why i did not vote specifically. What does the result look like if we remove the devs involved here from the survey? And does the lack of community engagement mean they dont care or didnt see it? Probably the latter. |
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I think everyone should participate in the survey to facilitate the counting process. I cannot see who upvoted here in GitHub to remove them from the survey (It is my first time here, so maybe there is a way that I'm not aware of). In any case, the form is still open.
Who should I count: comments, upvotes, participants? As mentioned before, I think the easiest way would be to all participate in the same survey.
I cannot answer if they do care or not since I don't have access to a representative data sample; I will be inclined to think that was a problem of reach. |
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All-- thanks for the great discussion on this! After reading through the conversation and discussing with the core team thoroughly, there is strong support for diamonds paid in CLOUT. I will create a CIP. |
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im not sure there was strong support for this change, and several alternative approaches were outlined that would address the problems mentioned. i for one will be disappointed by the move away from diamonds being paid in creator coin but i get that there may be other benefits as a result of this move that are at play here as well. eg - easier to demonstrate to new users what the benefits are of diamonds, and reducing large number of small value transactions on chain as a result of converting diamonds to clout. |
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+1 to what tijn said! |
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Not tipping, IMO. Creator coins can be used to determine dividends for holders, to earn royalties, and you can use creator coins to determine tiers of exclusive content/access. Would you ever tip someone on Twitter with shares of Tesla? That's essentially what we're talking about here. There is a simple mechanism to send creator coins to people on the platform already if you want to give out your own coin. Celebrities/influencers will want money NOT 100,000 random shit coins (my coins is included in the shit coin list). That's my opinion at least... |
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After reading thru this, @teambrixmusic idea on an alternative icon (rocket or even $) to pay in $CLOUT would be a better option compared to complicating what a diamond means. Like I outlined in one of my comments above, giving the "Diamond Giver" the option to reward the creator in $CLOUT or his own Creator Coin as suggested by @tijno first in this thread is the best option. |
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I don’t like the different type of tipping options. Tipping just in clout would be much better. |
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It would be good to see some of the people that discussed this change here review / comment on the actual CIP which is in progress? eg @N0rdian @teambrixmusic @bloated-devish @HPaulson (leaving out dgsus as he's on holiday for 3 weeks) please take time to review the PR @redpartyhat submitted if you haven't already. Its short and concise so will take maybe 10 min of your time. After all this can go ahead as long as RPH and DH are happy with it - so your input / suggestions / support is important now.
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name: Diamonds value source
about: Change the source of the diamond's value
title: N/A
labels: Diamonds, Content Reward
assignees: N/A
One-Line Description
Diamonds 💎 to be a $clout transfer from the sender balance as opposed to the sender creator coin.
Explanation and Motivation
I understand diamonds as a special recognition for a piece of content a creator has created. The sender wants to reward that content by giving diamonds. For the diamonds to become a quick and frictionless source of income, I think the transfer should be in $clout (directly to the 'wallet balance' and avoiding the act of selling) and not by transferring creator coin (we also have the Send Creator Coins function as a feature)
Some benefits:
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