Replies: 75 comments 61 replies
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WinUI is Windows only from my understanding... MAUI is any platform :) |
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MAUI does not support Linux. So "any platform" is not correct. |
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There is working being done to bring MAUI to Linux via several open source projects. |
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MAUI is just one more bad idea from Nadella, what did it happen: Conclusion: MAUI can "work" on multi-platform but no one with a little knowledge will use it for anything serious in a company. Unprofessional students are very likely to use. |
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Xamarin / XAML is not at all attractive, they can get away with high performance and just let me give it something and it renders very quick like how I can set the html in the browser and it just go blink. MAUI has browser rendering with Blazor which is ok for me. But anything they try to push, for me to use their ways of programming model, or syntax, or giving me a bunch of control with binding instead of letting me use one single type of element that's empty with no style for everything which I can customize, I always ignore what they say. Whenever you look at XAML, it's so much noise, and it's hard for you to make it better, because it's XAML it's not a programming language it's simply declaring what's there, but I can write 1 line of F# after some work and draw a UI that looks nice by building the same types of element with different styling and different call back on event triggers. |
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MVVM, view model update, none of that matters, the ideal way imo to draw UI is to have a specification that says what should be on screen, this specification involves 2 things : layout and 'specific typed parameters' in case you are gonna have different types of elements just like even though you can use 'div' for 'h' or 'p' in html you can't use it for svg. The engine should just translate that specification to pixels as soon as possible, such by type checking after you up cast these different parameters to object and then out putting the relevent UI in html or whatever way you are going to drarw the UI. That's it, I give you layout and customization, you draw it. You give me a callback I can call to tell you that I need to update the layout, I call it and the screen shows new pixels, you make it as fast as possible without too much complication. that's it, no xaml, just draw man This way there can be no code behind, no all that noise with XAML name space or brackets after brackets |
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MAUI is a framework for iOS, Android, Windows, and macOS. WinUI is as @coman3 says, Windows only. In theory, you can use MAUI to build WinUI apps, depending on how Windows platform will be implemented in MAUI. |
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that's from fluent design? |
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but Webview2 can not be used in MAUI. It' sad. |
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What is the future roadmap for UWP and Store apps with MAUI? |
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I understood that UWP will be deprecated. |
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Project Reunion maybe will do it easier to target both UWP and Win32 apps. https://github.com/microsoft/ProjectReunion |
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Well @coman3 , @dhindrik ; Uno takes WinUI places where MAUI is aiming, probably using MAUI as bases for it (guess) since it today uses Xamarin.Forms. It would be nice to see the same XAML dialect here since they cater to similar though not exactly the same needs. They just have different origins. |
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slight correction: Uno never "used" Xamarin.forms, only Xamarin.iOS and Xamarin.Android. |
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Uno is not using Xamarin.Forms It using Xamarin, but not Xamarin.Forms. https://platform.uno/how-it-works/ |
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@dhindrik Uno supports mobile by using WinUI, which means WinUI itself also supports cross-platform, not just Windows. |
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No. Uno IMPLEMENTED the WinUI API THEMSELVES on other platforms. (Using "Xamarin Native"s ability to code to each platforms APIs. IIRC, they roll their own UI widgets, and render to a bitmap. A much easier approach than "Xamarin Form"/Maui's cross-platform widgets.) Microsoft never did so. Microsoft should have fully backed them. |
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@dhindrik , you are right about the particulars of Xamarin.
...unless there is a plan for "unification". This is basically the same as today where we get the choice of
Some would say that is great, I do think it seems like a lost opportunity to not question the difference and hope for a unification! (at least on a XAML level which MAUI seems to think is just one out of many models to define the UI) Perhaps if one does not count Uno, then the choice is obvious, but the WinUI team is promoting Uno for non-Win10 things. |
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Outdated information Uno uses WinUI on Windows, runs Xamarin.Forms in the browser via WebAssembly and on other platforms it uses Xamarin.iOS and Xamarin.Android respectively, the special thing about it is that it abstracts you from the underlying UI tech so you can have a single codebase. MAUI will probably use WinUI on Windows much like Uno does behind the scene.
Read the comments below. |
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"WinUI is not a cross-platform tech" Learn more here: https://WinUI3.org |
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@eyalalonn Uno doesn't run Xamarin.forms in the browser, it runs WinUI Xaml and C# via webassembly, Uno implements all the rendering logic. Uno platform never uses Xamarin.forms, it uses Xamarin.iOS on iOS, Xamarin.Android on android, Webassembly for web, Skia for linux, Xamarin.macos for Mac. |
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@MarkBrainfire, @MatFillion Well as I noted I was confused when I wrote the comment and it's based on build talks and what I could read back then but thanks for the update. ;) |
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One would hope that UWP is going away entirely and thus WinUI on UWP and this will replace it and be treated as first class and used internally in MS. I wont' hold my breath. But it SHOULD. And yes, WinUI stuff should be ported to MAUI as a first class citizen. |
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why should uwp go away. there are still platforms like xbox and HoloLens. |
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@FireCubeStudios The writting is on the wall that it's dead, and by making MAUI able to target xbox and Hololens they have one cohesive development message unlike the last 10 year disaster. The writing is on the wall that UWP is being depreciated, so just be honest about it and make MAUI the unification of WPF/UWP/Xamarin into one platform like .net 5 is the merge of .net framework and .net core. And if WinUI was merged into MAUI then porting from UWP to MAUI becomes viable with a converter. (honestly microsoft needs to be using the flutter rendering engine for this though, and putting WinUI as renderers in flutter's rendering engine and coopting Google's hard work but using Xamarin backend and crossplatform with C#, Sanderson already proved it was possible with blazor) |
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Well, i for one think that you might be right @eyalsk however all talk about having WinUI as a spec and different implementations and project unification makes me unsure. |
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@JensNordenbro without unification MAUI is DOA and so is WinUI/All Windows App dev in general. Windows is quickly becoming a platform for a browser of which Chromebooks are cheaper. |
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@JensNordenbro WinUI 3 isn't just a spec and it wouldn't have different implementations. This is how a lead at Microsoft describes it:
Uno uses WinUI and MAUI probably will do the same. @JohnGalt1717 Scott Hunter says that MAUI is the evolution of Xamarin.Forms so with .NET 5 they are starting to evolve the framework into a single .NET progressively but by .NET 6 with MAUI we can expect to run almost everywhere as far as the UI goes. |
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MAUI is Xamarin and as a consequence is faded to fail, that is a fact! I used to vibrate with msft tools but now it is literally destroyed. My expectation in the future is to ditch away any msft tools I use... |
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@JohnGalt1717 does Uno Platform satisfy your requirements ? |
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@KWodarczyk In theory yes. The difficulty comes from the fact that it is a deeply integrated product in .NET that is 3rd party to Microsoft. It's exactly the same problem that Xamarin had back in the day before they were bought by Microsoft. Microsoft should be buying Uno, and then making the tech into the green field version of MAUI that uses coding instead of XAML like Flutter (I Know that's not a Uno thing persay) and uses WinUI across all platforms. Maui doesn't get them to a flutter competitor and it is still YET ANOTHER VERSION OF XAML which we don't need. Uno solves the entire Flutter problem in one shot and unifies XAML. Thinks might change once Uno's team has an opporunity to catch up and stabilize from the MAUI shift, and it may become stable and easly to setup and maintain. I hope so, but still, this is a golden opportunity for Microsoft to make the significant investment that grows .NET again by creating a competitor to React Native, Electron, and Flutter that works across all 6 platforms in the .NET ecosystem. |
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What about CommunityToolkit.Maui.Markup? Seems to be a set of extensions to write your views without any XAML. See this blog post: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/introducing-the-net-maui-community-toolkit-preview/. And the github repo: https://github.com/communitytoolkit/Maui.Markup. |
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The reason for this is MAUI still uses the native UI which makes the coding time takes longer, and the flatform using renderer become buggy and lags, or heavy... and the bugs cannot easily be fixed... Thats what I experience now.. but I'll be thankful because of blazor. The MAUI team is busy writing multiple UI codes for ios, android, windows. They can't write once and for all. They write 3 UI codes for 3 projects.., The ouput is YOU CANNOT CHANGE CUSTOMIZABLE ICON. EVEN the TITLE of MENUITEM IS NOT CUSTOMIZABLE. |
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If you try to build a WinUI App with C# in visual studio 2022, the only templates showing are MAUI templates. |
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At least they could do it right and not base it on Xamarin. |
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I hope MAUI fixes everything....but it is still years behind FLUTTER SDK
and also we should not give up on UNO platform they are doing so
much...HAVE A LOOK a UNO
…On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 1:43 PM Carlo ***@***.***> wrote:
At least they could do it right and not base it on Xamarin.
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Flutter 2.10 has proved that .net 6 or 7 are not worth it.... you can make
complex apps like RIVE and Rows for FASTER native windows apps
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03/25/22,
01:48:48 AM
…On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:13 PM nextcodelab ***@***.***> wrote:
By the time .NET 6 comes out, Xamarin/MAUI will be entirely irrelevant in
the marketplace. It's use share is virtually 0 as it is. It took flutter
less than 4 months to have more apps in the stores even while in beta than
Xamarin has had at it's height as an example.
Evolution is death. Paul Thurrott just posted this about the Surface
devices and Windows in general and he was right. Microsoft needs a
comprehensive solution that gets WinUI3 across platform yesterday. They're
already 3 years behind flutter and Xamarin does essentially nothing today
as MAUI that it didn't do before as Xamarin. It just does it slightly
easier. The support matrix isn't any better than it was before and won't be
at launch. Windows will still be a second-tier platform both by Microsoft
and by 3rd parties writing controls and components and web will still be
MIA.
So by the end of 2021 Maui will come out and you still won't be able to
take your WPF code with changes and run it cross platform on iOS, Android,
Web and Windows. So you're still going to have to write at least twice and
probably 3 times for all platforms, versus flutter where as long as the
site isn't publicly facing (i.e. it's behind login) you can easily write an
app that works across all platforms in one code base that is pixel perfect
on all platforms. By the end of 2021 Flutter will have either in late beta
or publicly released: Web, Windows, Linux, iOS, Android, and MacOS. Maui
will have Windows, iOS (and thus support for MacOS through catalyst) and
Android. It will look different on all of those platforms, and the
ecosystem will be tiny compared to flutter's so anything you need to do
including but not limited to video playback will be more difficult, not
less on Maui than Flutter. And then there is jetpack, Kotlin on web,
SwiftUI, React Native and countless others that all do cross platform as
well or better than Maui, or will by the time Maui is released.
Microsoft hasn't figured out that they're faced with the Edge choice for
end user development: Either pile TONS of cash and build your own engine
and compete with Chrome head on and try and beat them at what they're
doing, or coopt Chrome and take back MarketShare with features on Chrome's
rendering engine.
Maui is a failure to understand the scope of the problem that they face as
currently designed. It's $5-10 BILLION short in development investment to
ever compete honestly too. That means the death of windows because as it
stands right now, there is no reason to ever build a windows app because
now, even companies that need to integrate with hardware make you do it on
your phone/tablet that isn't running windows, or they're doing it on Linux.
So Windows is a shell for Office and a web browser. And guess what? Linux
is just as good but cheaper at doing that.
So, the question is, is when is someone at Microsoft going to recognize
the Edge choice that is in front of them, and make the wise decision? Coopt
the flutter rendering engine, make it work best on windows, ensure all
plugins have Windows support, and hook C# into Flutter so that developers
don't have Dart inflicted upon them, and then hook that all into Visual
Studio and the iOS emulators and give away iOS Emulator time so that a dev
on a windows machine never needs to ever use a Mac for any part of their
development process?
Or they need to show us yesterday how they're going to get the equivalent
with Xamarin/Maui. (I personally don't see how it's possible for them to do
it with Xamarin/Maui at this late stage, they've frittered away way too
much time to recover)
This decision making decides the fate of Windows, so it should be the head
of the Windows group that is making this decision not .net development
people that don't have a full understanding of the stakes involved.
Microsoft would be vastly better off making the decision one way or
another: Either we're writting WPF cross platform with Win UI 3 and a
converter that converts previous wpf code to Win UI 3 code and helps you
remove all of the platform specific stuff out and create custom
implimentations as necessary but does so across all platforms including
web. Or just adopting flutter Edgium style and putting their efforts to
making it seamless to develop on windows without ever needing a mac.
The latter choice is by far the most cost effective, and the most likely
to succeed. They've already proven that with Edge.
The reason for this is MAUI still uses the native UI which makes the
coding time takes longer, and the flatform using renderer become buggy and
lags, or heavy... and the bugs cannot easily be fixed... Thats what I
experience now.. but I'll be thankfullbecause of blazor.
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Ok, we got it. Flutter. |
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So why even bother using anything aside from MAUI |
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.net needs to prove it self..
…On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 6:02 AM Xyncgas ***@***.***> wrote:
So why even bother using anything aside from MAUI
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Whaaaattttt ! .NET been used for GUIs for 20 years..... |
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Glad to hear it!
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07/16/22,
07:34:32 PM
…On Sat, Jul 16, 2022 at 6:44 AM Jeff Haynes ***@***.***> wrote:
Ok, we got it. Flutter.
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MAUI and React Native for Windows will eventually support WinUI and the Windows Application SDK. I think the plan is to offer a solution to allow developers to slowly (or quickly) migrate to the one solution. WinUI already offers a path for Winforms and WPF. |
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Flutter took all the marketplace for .net .... They should really have
focuses on UWP and brought it to all platforms
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12/30/22,
11:46:55 PM
…On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:33 PM Carl ***@***.***> wrote:
MAUI is just one more bad idea from Nadella, what did it happen:
1- There was the .NET Framework and a new framework was being worked on
for both desktop and phone which were called UWP. Both were really good and
everything worked.
2- Nadella took office and instead on focusing on the good job which was
being done, he just decided to buy Xamarin which absolutely no one used
because it was bad, bad, bad, bad....
3- Stopped working on (1) and started just creating stuff for Xamarin...
as it continued to be bad, very bad, he decided to rename it and hope
people would start using something bad but it had a new name.
4- Now you have MAUI, which is the same as Xamarin... bad.
Conclusion: MAUI can "work" on multi-platform but no one with a little
knowledge will use it for anything serious in a company. Unprofessional
students are very likely to use.
Keep using the WinUI or WPF on Windows if you want to develop desktop
application or if you are really interested in trying multi-platform, do it
in C++.
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I have my own UI library, as long as they let me run .NET codes on client machine I am happy |
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I was shocked when I saw Microsft not promoting UNO, instead they were
promoting FLUTTER, Looks like MSFT don't care at all, they should have
bought UNO instead.
…On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 1:40 PM Eyal Alon ***@***.***> wrote:
@MatFillion <https://github.com/MatFillion> Well as I noted I was
confused too so I wrote the comment based on build talks and what I could
read back then but thanks for the update. ;)
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But all flutter app looks the same, kinda flat |
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Kindly get your information right before talking publicly. Microsoft supports and collaborates with Uno team in different forms and capacity. |
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Enable fluent ui in flutter 🍃
…On Mon, Feb 6, 2023, 1:22 PM Xyncgas ***@***.***> wrote:
But all flutter app looks the same, kinda flat
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Avalonia is better than blazor / MAUI |
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Especially you can stop writing html / xaml, and completely immerse yourself in C#/F#, it's also a convincing reason to buy Jet Brain Rider |
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But I like how blazor / MAUI.Blazor offer a browser and nice event binding that lets me use one single 'div' element for everything except svg, I can style it how ever I want and write my own algorithm for light scattering / shadow physics to set the color of my element, I can click on it and right click on it without needing a specific control for it, this saves so many lines of codes oh my god because it let's me use the same generic element for everything |
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Trust me, MAUI.blazor is still very good, you get a browser from the beginning to play with, although it's higher level and not fitted for embedded, think of yourself delivering a game, you don't worry about embedded device, also it's super easy to make eye catching UI with all the javascript library out there. How many UI library do you have in Xamarin / Flutter / Avalonia world? If you want to make a shiny NFT APP MAUI.Blazor get you to all devices and you can have another Blazor webassembly / Blazor server project that bring your NFT APP to the web, with no codes changed Especially if you already put your entire app in ASP.NET class library, you can consume the component in both project (MAUI / Blazor web) with just one line declaring that component to exist Browser is very high performance, even if you are manipulating css and calling StateHasChanged to update the dom instead of using css 'animation' or 'transition' attributes or javascript 'requestnewframe' you are still getting blazing fast performance, it's extremely scalable too I tried putting 10k elements on screen and animating them using StateHasChanged and it was decent fps |
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Avalonia https://funcui.avaloniaui.net/ |
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Supporting uni and then promoting flutter 🍃 wah
…On Tue, Feb 7, 2023, 5:56 PM saint4eva ***@***.***> wrote:
Kindly get your information right before talking publicly. Microsoft
supports and collaborates with Uno team in different forms and capacity.
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HAHA! Thanks for the criticism! I love MAUI, But it hate the diversity,
Apple has Swift Ui and Google has Flutter, but Microsoft has 6 7 types of
things, and one can never be sure which one will be long term supported...
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02/09/23,
03:48:59 AM
…On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 1:47 AM Xyncgas ***@***.***> wrote:
MVVM, view model update, none of that matters, the ideal way imo to draw
UI is to have a specification that says what should be on screen, this
specification involves 2 things : layout and 'specific typed parameters' in
case you are gonna have different types of elements just like even though
you can use 'div' for 'h' or 'p' in html you can't use it for svg. The
engine should just translate that specification to pixels as soon as
possible, such by type checking after you up cast these different
parameters to object and then out putting the relevent UI in html or
whatever way you are going to drarw the UI.
That's it, I give you layout and customization, you draw it. You give me a
callback I can call to tell you that I need to update the layout, I call it
and the screen shows new pixels, you make it as fast as possible without
too much complication. that's it, no xaml, just draw man
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For example, they have this webview control in MAUI / winform / WPF, well I can't tell the webview to use the browser I want it to use, and now because the browser is buggy my app is buggy, since microsoft is unlikely (lacking the momentum) to fix something in the browser as fast as they would for a bug in ASP.NET, they should let me use another browser like firefox for example for the webview control, yet they are not doing that they are not doing that and they havent done that (lacking visions) |
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They Finally have enough POWER to beat GOOGLE, MAUI could have been named
UNO instead and should have combined the best of all things MSFT, and
blazor and MAUI should have been the same those... like how apple is doing
with SWIFT UI, SWIFT UI is so versatile(except Web) but flutte on the
other had. isso versatile it an do all and WEB as well! wohtou a single
change!... I love MSFT but they should have sticked with UWP and improved
it to modern UI
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02/14/23,
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…On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 10:07 AM Xyncgas ***@***.***> wrote:
I don't think microsoft lacks vision, or money, they just don't care when
I told them my ideas years ago and now they forgot everything I said and
say they don't know better
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What's the difference between MAUI and WinUI? Which is the future trend?
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