iPhone / iOS Beta discussion

[cobraPA]

There was some discussion in another thread, but here's more of a news and try it out thread...

I've submitted to Apple for initial review for testing of a sample app for iPhone / iPad running Sideband. We'll see how initial review goes. I don't expect any major problems, but there might be some cleanup needed before they approve. Once approved, I can share a public link here that people can use to install the app using Apple's TestFlight for Beta testing.

Initially you will need iOS 12 for this first build. Let me know if people want to run lower versions, it maybe to possible to support as far back as iOS 9.

Initially, you will find the user interface looks like Android in most cases, but on the connectivity page, only local interface and TCP is expected to work. I have not setup bluetooth or serial yet. I was able to get Apple approval for multi-cast UDP, so local discovery should be working, although I am seeing that sometimes it does not seem to bi-directionally announce right away.

This initial build runs Reticulum in the foreground only, so the network layer will sleep when you switch away from the app. Wakeup seems to work ok though.

Previous initial discussion was here

[cobraPA]

Beta is live and can be installed from this link: https://testflight.apple.com/join/ftgW9n0Z . We'll see how listing it here goes. You can give feedback in the TestFlight app or here in the issue.

[cobraPA]

Sorry, I missed this embedded reply...
You can run any of the Sideband clients to do some testing to send/receive with the iOS version. So windows, linux, Mac, Android.

[markqvist]

Nomadn Network also speaks to it, of course :)

[oztechguy]

Tried installing on my iPhone 14 today and TestFlight says not accepting any new beta testers - can I please test the app also?

[cobraPA]

Hi @oztechguy... sorry, I'm sure we are outside the 90 day lifetime of the TestFlight build, I'll post a rebuild to get it live again. Thanks for the heads up!

[cobraPA]

Ok. @oztechguy , new build is available. It might take a little bit to propagate, depending on where you are. You should get notified by testflight also.

[cobraPA]

Follow up here on the initial Beta, I can see from TestFlight we have a few people using the first Beta. It reports no crashes, which is encouraging. Does anyone have feedback negative or positive?

[faragher]

Mostly that I'm saddened Test Flight won't work on my ridiculously outdated iPhone. :D

I'm glad things appear to be working. Adding iOS to the ecosystem is a big gain.

[Tokotte]

Hello, I've just installed the application on my iPad.

[cobraPA]

Great! Feel free to post up here or in testflight if you have any good/bad experiences. I will probably see testflight comments quickly... (although Apple may limit what they share for the anonymous link to make absolutely...positively...sure I can't track you down :) )
If anyone does do more extensive testing, I can share a non-anonymous link if you want to be sure I can get to any crash reports (and you are willing to share them.)
As of today I can see the number of anonymous installs is 12. And there are no crashes reported, which is a little encouraging.

[plongk]

Downloaded last week using the testflight URL ... it was working fine on my iPhone 7. But when I tried using it today (16-Aug-2023) I get "sidebandos" Beta Has Expired ... does apple only let testflight apps live for 3 months?

[cobraPA]

Yes, the test apps are time limited. Thanks for the heads up, I'll posted a new build.

[cobraPA]

@plongk Ok, Apple says it's available again. You should be notified by TestFlight. Depending on where in the world you are, there might be a small delay before it appears, but I would expect it to be available within 24 hrs max.

[plongk]

Thank-you ... I am back up! But I did have to remove the app and re-install (... or maybe I'm just too impatient and didn't wait long enough :).
Thanks again.

[cobraPA]

I've started some investigation/prototyping on RNode firmware for support of iOS also. If anyone wants to have a look, you can find an early version here. No support in SideBand yet, but this can be flashed to the Heltec devices and you can do initial connect/disconnect using the LightBlue test app. Comments or feedback welcome, next will be Sideband attachment now that iOS devices can see the RNode. (And more work to complete support in the RNode firmware. This initial version does not have Android Classic Bluetooth turned on, but it has the possibility to run either Classic Bluetooth or BLE, as setup.)

[trosel]

Bumping this thread: is there something in particular we should be doing on the app to test it?

Or is there any help in terms of what to do after you download the app? Maybe we can all join a Reticulum chat group?

[cobraPA]

Hi trosel, thanks for checking it out! Well, it should be usable for basic network use now. I am currently focused on the bluetooth stack on iOS between Python and swift and making compatible changes in the RNode BLE firmware. Once that is working I will get back to more work on the iOS Sideband app itself.
You should be able to use the app now for basic messaging, assuming you attach to wifi with an iPhone or iPad. Adding one of the test transport nodes should get you going with sending messages on the test network. Or you can do they same on a private network as well.
I am interested in reports of things that do or don't work. And feel free to post questions here also. If it looks like there is too much discussion in Mark's pages, I can setup discussion on my GitHub account also. (But this hasn't been super busy so far, so I would continue here for the near future.)
If anything I said about testing is over anyone's head, feel free to ask setup questions and I'll try to give some examples.

[trosel]

You should be able to use the app now for basic messaging, assuming you attach to wifi with an iPhone or iPad.

If I only have one device with this app (I only have one iPhone), who do I talk to? lol

Adding one of the test transport nodes should get you going with sending messages on the test network

Ok this is good info.

If anything I said about testing is over anyone's head, feel free to ask setup questions and I'll try to give some examples.

Overall, I think there should be very basic instructions for how to get started on the app. We can't assume that someone has already used Sideband before (if they use iOS, then they haven't)

[faragher]

If I only have one device with this app (I only have one iPhone), who do I talk to? lol

EchoBot will get you an immediate response for testing purposes. You can also just try to strike up conversations with familiar names or join the Beleth Distribution Group.

[trosel]

How do i connect to the echo bot?

how do i find “familiar names”? I only have the option to enter an address, not browse a list of names.

how do i join the Beleth Distribution Group? This sounds like what I want to do (test communication with you all on here.)

[faragher]

Simply send the EchoBot a message. If you don't know how to do that, check your announces, find EchoBot and select them to start a conversation.

Re: familiar names, it sounds like you aren't checking the announce stream or aren't connected to a node.

You can join the group by finding the group in the announce stream and starting a conversation. You should get instructions to join, IIRC.

Have you connected to a node on the network? Can you see announces?

[trosel]

check your announces

What does this mean exactly? I announced myself in the app

it sounds like you aren't checking the announce stream or aren't connected to a node.

I see two propagation nodes in the Announce Stream tab

Am I supposed to see a list of users in the same propagation nodes somewhere?

[faragher]

That list should propagate as people announce. You should see EchoBot within an hour, and every node (and most active peers) within a day. @cobraPA does the iOS version pick up announces when running in the background?

Those propagation nodes don't look familiar. Are you connected to the test net or your own network? Are other peers announcing on your network?

[cobraPA]

The current beta on iPhone does not run in the background, so you would need to keep it alive manually for a while. I would instead setup an instance on a local PC to catch the echobot signature... or the echobot owner could post it so you can add it manually.

[cobraPA]

If anything I said about testing is over anyone's head, feel free to ask setup questions and I'll try to give some examples.

Overall, I think there should be very basic instructions for how to get started on the app. We can't assume that someone has already used Sideband before (if they use iOS, then they haven't)

Not a bad idea. The current version is a subset of the Android version, so the usage docs you find on Mark's site all apply (minus things that don't work yet.) I'll see what else I can put together, but it won't be right away.

[trosel]

Ideally, there can be at least one group chat listed where we can talk about reticulum on reticulum itself (LXMF)

[cobraPA]

Just a little teaser... I've been working through getting kivy / iOS and bluetooth/BLE all setup for development and finally am back to making some progress on the RNode integration:

[2023-10-23 17:33:51] [Debug] Adding RNode Interface...
[2023-10-23 17:33:51] [Notice] Getting platform RNode interfaces...
[2023-10-23 17:33:51] [Notice] RNode iOS setup...
[2023-10-23 17:33:51] [Notice] Error while adding RNode Interface. The contained exception was: module 'RNS.Interfaces.iOS' has no attribute 'RNodeInterface'
[2023-10-23 17:33:51] [Notice] Reticulum started, activating LXMF...

[cobraPA]

A small milestone today (well, maybe big for me!). First RNode startup with the BLE changes and the radio reports online. I have a lot of cleanup to do and need to setup a second one to verify it can really transmit/receive, but a good step!

[cobraPA]

For people testing, you'll get a notice of a new version of SidebandOS today. RNode Lora support is live but you will need custom RNode firmware. There is firmware in https://github.com/cobraPA/RNode_Firmware_iOS/commits/kb_ble_test1 that supports Bluetooth for iPhone/iPad.

[oztechguy]

Can confirm I am getting Dissolving/Substantiating messages and all network and Bluetooth permissions messages are occurring on first run of the app (double checked all enabled in iOS settings for Sideband).
I did get 'connect' messages printed via the Serial Monitor - but even after double checking all settings are correct I cant get the "waterfall" on the display to react when the app starts showing data transmission like I do when I connect one of my T-beams running 1.70 via serial to my MacBook and use sbapp(MacOS).

The boards I am running are the Heltec Wireless Stick V2.1 AU915 (SX1276 lora version not V3 with USB C) and have been able to get the sketch to compile without any errors and upload. Here's a PDF about them: (https://resource.heltec.cn/download/Wireless_Stick/Wireless%20Stick%20V2.1.pdf)

Im a bit stuck as I have two TTGO Lora32 T-Beam v0.7 also - but as we mentioned stopped at that weird out of space error when compiling, so I cant test against those at the moment either as I cant get them connected via bluetooth on iOS.

I tried removing everything and restarting from scratch - but could only get messages to send/receive via WIFI and the app seems to ignore the Lora interface altogether.

If you have any other ideas let me know and I will keep trying :)

[cobraPA]

Sounds like it should be working (connect on the serial console says the phone attached over bluetooth.) If there is nothing bad after that, especially what looks like a crash, then the RNode should be up.
Try this:
On phone, in connectivity menu, turn off local Wifi/Ethernet and TCP choices, make sure RNode is turned on (slider blue and right). Perform shutdown
Power cycle the RNode and restart it
Start Sideband
Do you see both sections of the display on your RNode, one with info and another with the waterfall and connection boxes? Does the info section change to an 'airtime section' after a few seconds (the bluetooth icon should change to indicate the connection as well?)
If so, airtime should be about 0%.
Now on the phone, go out to the main screen (close any submenus with the top right 'x') and do an announce (the icon to the right of the 'Conversation label, kind of like ((.)) )
Does the airtime change? It jumps to about 3% here, but the waterfall shows almost nothing (maybe one extra dot.) It should drop back to about 0% when the waterfall scrolls off again.

[oztechguy]

Ok - so I followed your above instructions carefully and did more testing and found a part of my issue was probably my own fault.
I was using the LightBlue app to connect the Heltec sticks and I should have just let the Sideband app manage the bluetooth connection.
I now get the pair request on first app startup and can see the Rnode as "Connected" under Enable Pairing in the RNode settings in the app.
This now gives me an active waterfall and the channel statistics on the screen with things changing as announce icon is tapped.

But still no messages or changes in the Announce Stream in the iOS app which is weird - I feel like I am getting closer but just not quite there yet getting it working :)

edit: - Have also added address manually of other devices to see if I can just send a direct message (there needs to be a "copy address to clipboard" button and a "paste from clipboard" button in the interface under this field as holding down to copy/paste this doesn't work well/at all and the input fields jump around - resulting in needing to manually type an address in).
When I manually add another device and start a conversation there is a button to request Public Key information from the network for that device, and this makes waterfall jump right up momentarily on the receiving/nearby RNodes - but still no acknowledgement or evidence this worked in the app.
I can confirm adding a device manually works when communicating in Sideband via WIFI over the internet and the Public Key request is received and Conversation then works normally - just not for me over Lora at the moment for some reason...

[cobraPA]

That all sounds good. I'll have to try LightBlue again. I think it will connect with the RNode which will prevent Sideband from using it until it releases (the RNode BLE firmware does not support multiple connections at once.)
You should now be able to talk to it with your Mac and Rnode or even run LoraMon on the mac to capture packets from the iPhone RNode as well.

[cobraPA]

Not ready for iOS yet, but I have extracted some testing code for the Heltec Lora32 V3 devices and made initial pull request for it for Mark to review. I think @oztechguy, you said you had these as well. I hope to get them working with iOS also. PR is here: markqvist/RNode_Firmware#73

[cobraPA]

I've posted an updated SidebandOS app just now and recently updated the RNode firmware for iOS/BLE. Background processing is enabled for the BLE stack, such that you can switch away from the app and the RNode will continue to receive in the background. I have not tested for how long this will continue in background yet. There is still some work to do to restore the app state if it is evicted from running by the OS. I've been able to run the Heltec V2, Heltec V3 and TBeam devices using that firmware and iPhone/iPad. I'll need to write up some flashing details, as signing the firmware isn't fully possible without rnodeconf changes, I think. If you want to flash, the easiest way is to use the Makefile settings for your target you are running (example 'make firmware-tbeam', then edit the target for your serial port in the Makefile, for 'make upload-tbeam' and run it.) I have overridden some of the firmware checks and device checks to make it possible to run in the current state for testing.

[BitDownMod]

Trying to pair this board over BT, no luck. LilyGO LoRa32 v2.1 T3 1.6.1

[cobraPA]

You would need to use the beta iPhone BLE firmware on a your RNode, otherwise it will not talk to the iPhone at all. If you do install it from GitHub, it will pair automatically with SidebandOS on iPhone. The BLE RNode firmware will not connect to Android though.

[BitDownMod]

Thanks! How to properly flash console_image.bin? I tried ./esptool.py -p /dev/cu.wchusbserial583A0151721 write_flash 0x00000 console_image.bin, but it seems it doesn't work and I need some help. Also I now think console_image.bin is not the beta iPhone BLE firmware :)) Sorry for the noob questions!

[cobraPA]

Did you pull a copy of the git for the BLE firmware yet? At https://github.com/cobraPA/RNode_Firmware_iOS/tree/kb_ble_test1 . Then easiest way is probably to use make to install it. You already have esptool, and if you have make there are build targets for compile and install. First build the version you need with 'make firmware-lora32_v21' (for example, that looks closest to your board, but I might have the wrong variant.) Then edit the Makefile to add your serial port in place of 'COM3' or '/dev/tty...' in the upload target labelled 'upload-lora32_v21' (or other variant.)
Maybe @markqvist has an easier way? Is there a better way to install test firmware?

[BitDownMod]

Thank you! That's unbelievable, but I made it! I still need to test the connection between two iPhones.

arduino-cli core install esp32:esp32

make prep-esp32
make firmware-lora32_v21

make upload-lora32_v21

[cobraPA]

Great! It will work between two iPhones and also iPhone <-> Android/Mac/Win. The over the air protocol is the same. (Or it should!) I tested on a TBeam (lora32 variant) with iPhone and it was working, but post up if you see any trouble.

[cobraPA]

New experimental support for the Heltec Capsule Sensor V3 and Heltec Wireless Paper devices is available at https://github.com/cobraPA/RNode_Firmware_iOS/tree/kb_ble_test1 . The capsule sensor is an interesting device, as it includes case and battery as purchased. It's BLE and WiFi only though, so no serial port for Android connection. Also has an interesting new surface mount LoRa antenna, so will be interesting to see if/how much LoRa range is compromised.

[markqvist]

Also, the BLE support will need to be added to directly to the relevant Reticulum interfaces, but I'm waiting to do that until we're fairly certain there's a universal/stable way of doing it across RNode types. I'm not sure where the discussion on that really went, but I'm sure you can come up with something sensible :) It's probably worth specifying a custom BLE GATT for this, but I'll let you all be the judge of that.

[jacobeva]

Here because Mark pinged me. Nice job bro! If you're in the matrix channel, please contact me on there. I have already written an e-ink display driver you can probably use for that device, and I would be happy to merge your support to the CE firmware :)

An aside, does your iOS fork use the same python container Mark uses for regular Sideband? Would that mean the BLE support could be (at least partially) reused for android?

[jacobeva]

To be honest I've been using RNS with BLE by just bridging it to a serial port using ble-serial. I think it's written in Python Mark, may be worth looking at the module on pip...

Edit: I should observe that the RNodeInterface interface needed some extra sleep() calls to make sure it received all the data when doing this. BLE is slower than a straight serial line, obvious I guess.

[cobraPA]

News to me on the 'new community fork'. Where can I find out what that is about? Is there a repo and description of what it covers?

[markqvist]

I posted some info in this blog post under the RNode section, and @jacobeva is taking over the maintenance of the continued development of the community edition of the firmware, so I can focus more on the core of Reticulum.

The new repo is here: https://github.com/liberatedsystems/RNode_Firmware_CE

[cobraPA]

Build 6 of SidebandOS is live, in case anyone noticed the TestFlight build expired recently. It should be available shortly.

[grevemes]

Love to try it out…

[cobraPA]

Link is still https://testflight.apple.com/join/ftgW9n0Z, using the TestFlight app on iPhone/ipad (and MacOS with iPad compatibility app or VisionOS.)

[cobraPA]

SidebandOS for iOS has been rebuilt. There is a minor addition to the BLE connections recognized to support in-progress work on the Seeed T1000-E Tracker device for RNode use. This might also recognize RNodes with BLE from the CE repo, but I have not tested that yet. (supports the BLE iDs for nRF52 devices.)

[markqvist]

Nice! Then it should work with ESP32 BLE devices from the main repo as well, as those use the same IDs as the nRF version!

[cobraPA]

Yes, it may. I have not tried a recent build, but should pull some newer firmware from you. It can talk to both bluefruit and ArduinoBLE stacks on the RNode side, and I think it actually complies with the serial protocol already, but I have not tested all of that yet. I wanted to rebuild it though since I noticed it was over the 90 day window on the old build and was auto-expired.

[555wolfman]

Last post here is 1.5 years old. Just want to ask about the status of Sindband on iOS (iPhone/iPad),

Is development stopped? Is there a plan to release the app? Any help possible?

[cobraPA]

Greetings, the testflight link is still available. I know a few people use it, but very little feedback has come in. If you try it, please report any feedback in TestFlight, here, or send me an email.
It does need to be updated to recent changes Mark has made in his base version of Sideband. With some more work, it might be released. I'd like to do some BLE improvements for RNode use. I'm also unsure of the full utility of Sideband on iOS with the local network limitations. There are some potential ways to improve that, so I'm open to feedback on if a release would be useful in general.

[tomasbrincil]

Hi folks, thank for this great work.
I have some feedback from fresh install of sideband and test of com between an Sideband + Rnode and MeshChat + Sideband.
Unfortunately I am not able to Query Network For Keys. Is this common? What I can try to force the interchange of keys? Thanks.

[tomasbrincil]

Hi Mark, thank you for valuable mark up.
Cobra, between two Sideband instances it works without any issue. But from Sideband to MeshChat or nomadnet I am not able recieve the keys and problem occurs. I have now huge playground in my workshop. I can simulate any scenario if you want.

[gretel]

Thanks Mark! I have the LXMF/Sideband and Reticulum layers somewhat merged in my understanding, that helps. I know there are also some updates in your Android version of Sideband along with Reticulum... is there a possibility that announce / key exchange is incompatible with the older version I presently have running in the iOS build?

yes, indeed.

[markqvist]

Thanks Mark! I have the LXMF/Sideband and Reticulum layers somewhat merged in my understanding, that helps. I know there are also some updates in your Android version of Sideband along with Reticulum... is there a possibility that announce / key exchange is incompatible with the older version I presently have running in the iOS build?

So after our chat over in the matrix channel, it's now clear that the current iOS Sideband build (0.7.7) does indeed use an outdated version of RNS, which does not support announces including key ratchets. At this point, all LXMF destinations use ratchets (except those running in iOS Sideband), so key exchanges from new -> old will fail.

The only way to remedy this is to update the Sideband build of iOS to a newer version, that includes the updated RNS and LXMF code.

Unfortunately, this means that Sideband is effectively non-functional on iOS at this point.

Since I didn't make the iOS port, I actually have no clue whether it is even feasible to update the build to the latest version. What do you think @cobraPA? I know you put a lot of hard work into this. Is it feasible to continue to release updated iOS builds, or would it be better to shift focus to a native iOS-centric client instead at this point in time?

By the way, if you do decide to make another build, hold out just a bit yet. RNS 0.9.0 will be released soon, that once again will create a compatibility issue down the road if clients aren't up to date. So it will be much better to wait just a bit more, until a new version of Sideband is out, based on RNS 0.9.0.

[cobraPA]

Yes, I'm planning to merge forward. This is expected with breaking changes in any of the networking layer code, the fun of Beta and having large code bases. You've had a lot of nice improvements in Sideband and Reticulum lately. For the short term, the iOS build will just be able to talk to itself and other clients who are not on the latest builds from your repo's. (And the sample RNode firmwares in my GitHub.)

[heri16]

When merge?

[aaaidan]

Wonderful to see work toward an ios apps. Anyone with an iPhone being able to use Reticulum over LoRa from a bluetooth connection to an RNode will be a huge deal. Is there a current testflight for Sideband available for testing that works with other LXMF clients?

Sounds like we're waiting on @cobraPA (to have time and energy to graciously) update/merge the rns stack to the latest version. Do you have any plans for that, Cobra? Is there any way for anyone to help out?

[cobraPA]

That's a good question (about helping out.) So if there are people with MacOS/XCode, and want to dig in to kivy/PSL (Python interfaces to a little Swift) and Reticulum... maybe... The build setup is currently quite a chore, so not really ready for someone without some experience with those various areas. I need to get code on GitHub, but the build setup is extensive so have not tried to fully document that yet.
There is also some work to do if you know Xcode and Apple's rules about power management and use of bluetooth/network interfaces. As has come up before, background operation on the network interfaces is 'not allowed by Apple policy'. I quote that, because there are stories of some developers getting around it. On a better news front, the bluetooth does support background actions, so my first focus is getting things stabilized for RNode, because I think that case does not require pushing Apple to allow anything they currently limit.
Oh, and my primary work at the moment is on the Seeed T1000-E for RNode, which has been much slower than I hoped!

[aaaidan]

Thanks for the update. 🙏

I wish I could help with either of those areas. Hopefully someone with the right skills can offer a hand.

On the topic of background operations, I noticed that the Meshtastic app allows users to start a "live activity". Aside from providing feedback on the lock screen, I have heard claims that allows the app to keep hold of the Bluetooth connection for longer than it would otherwise. In my limited testing, it seemed to work, although not for an indefinite period. Hope this helps, but could be a red herring.

[userthx1138]

I have a Mac with Xcode and would be willing to spend some time trying to set up the build environment if that would help.
The current build on TestFlight expires in 30 days and it would be great to have a functional client on iOS.

[cobraPA]

I have a Mac with Xcode and would be willing to spend some time trying to set up the build environment if that would help. The current build on TestFlight expires in 30 days and it would be great to have a functional client on iOS.

I've started a wiki page with some very early intro steps, but if you want to get involved, have a look and I'll try to answer questions and/or add detail as we go. Anyone else is welcome to look in to setting up a base environment as well.
SidebandOS contributing

[richardwonka]

I have installed sideband 0.7.7 beta on iOS and can confirm that key exchange seems to not to work with the above shown symptoms.
also, I am finding that I can see almost (bar one exception) only propagation nodes on the Annouce Stream. A friend was able to write to me, but I could not see his announces, nor reply to him.
the one peer I have seen in the annouce stream I could ping (received) and write to, but I never got a reply. But this is someone I don't know, so I cannot know if they just didn't feel like writing or never saw my message.

[markqvist]

As stated earlier in this discussion, 0.7.7 is so old, that the included RNS release does not include support for key ratchets, which are now used by default everywhere (and really should, since it improves messaging security a lot).

[richardwonka]

I have seen the contributing wiki, will have a look. I’d really like to get this to a usable state for iOS. (Hopefully won’t be buying another phone with a more liberated OS for a few years. )
I’m not much of a coder, but do have a background in UX and a willingness to play with development versions.

[cobraPA]

Anyone already using the beta should have seen an announce... But just to add to this thread, there are new builds merged forward to Mark's latest Sideband 1.5.0, versioned as 1.5.0.ios when you run the client. TCP and Autointerface are working, RNode is still 'in progress', although some simple initial testing says it will work with my older iOS RNode versions (but those will probably get merged forward unless I am able to easily stabilize the RNode firmware from Mark's repo with the iOS BLE.) SidebandOS does recognize devices with the BLE in Mark's and the CE repos, but some initial testing showed some odd behavior and poor performance when talking to a test case against my version of the Seeed T1000-e driver based on Mark's latest. So there is some difference in handling going on.
Same limitations overall apply:

• Wifi networking will not be monitored in the background. So you should plan to use a propagation node and retrieve when checking for new messages.
• BLE has some short term background capability (planning to enhance this for better RNode use)
• Telemetery doesn't do anything in the current build, but I do have a sample with battery level working locally. If I get a couple more pieces of data available, I will most likely push another build out.

As an experiment, I did submit the second build of the new merge to the Apple app store for review. More as a 'test-the-waters' than any real expectation of passing. I got a rejection, but not for anything unexpected, which is promising. Reasons included 'functionality enabled that does not work' (expected, with Telemetry and map pages enabled and no gps or sensors setup yet), and they will want a video of connection to 'remote device' (think BLE RNode), which makes perfect sense, since they do not have the hardware to verify any of that.

Overall, not a bad thing. Shows potential for being available in the app store some day.

[su-kkasberg]

I cannot connect to my helteck V3 bluetooth from iOS. I can see and connect to it from andriod inside of the android settings bluetooth connections. I cannot see the bluetooth pairing mode in iOS on an iPad or iphone (both fully updated).

Heltech V3 running Rnode 1.81 

iOS sideband V1.5.0.ios
RNS 0.9.3
LXMF V0.6.2

[cobraPA]

Yes... So a little history here. The iPhone Sideband has testing code to allow pairing of active devices immediately, and iOS RNode firmware allows this at the moment. Mark's and CE RNode firmwares require that you put the device in pairing mode with RNodeconf (which is a good security practice), so will not be available for pairing without attempting that.

You can give that a try, but my initial testing suggests it is not stable. There appear to be some issues using the Android BLE setup from Mark's RNode firmware with the iOS Sideband BLE. I also ran in to issues on rnodeconf on Windows, as you can enter pairing mode, but the printout for pairing PIN isn't sent until you enter a key to stop pairing mode (only a problem on devices without a screen, which is what I started testing with.)

Anyway, thanks for the report, I am aware of some things to address in BLE. For now, I know the Seeed T1000-E iOS RNode firmware can be made to work with iOS Sideband, but the T1000 firmware for Mark's RNode version is not stable using BLE with iOS Sideband.

[su-kkasberg]

thanks for the quick reply. I just used the firmware recommended by the rnode webflasher utility.

rnode_firmware_heltec32v3.zip

how would I edit the rnodeconf file in iOS? It shows the path to me, but it is not in a place were I can access it from the file manager.

EDIT: to express appreciation for all of the work the team is doing. The last version of sideband for ios I was not able to get encryption keys which made it pretty much useless. I can not communicate at least through TCP interfaces now. I really appreaciate all of the effort on this project!

[ruohki]

So i tried enabling bt and pairing mode. But the node wont show up for pairing.

[cobraPA]

Hi @ruohki,
Can you share what RNode and firmware you are trying? There are iOS BLE RNode firmware which pairs automatically. If you are running other firmware, it would need to be a BLE version like on some nrF52 based devices, but it may not pair as easily.

[b0urb0n]

I'm experiencing the same thing. I've tried with a Heltec V3 running 1.82 and a Heltec T114 running 1.82. Both devices will enter pairing mode and display a pin, but the iPhone never finds them.

I'm using an iPhone 16 Pro Max running iOS 18.5.

[b0urb0n]

I was able to connect to one of my Heltec V3s using the nRF Connect app. For some reason, the devices don't show up in the iOS Bluetooth settings until you've successfully connected via nRF app.

EDIT: I was unable to successfully pair to the T114 using nRF app. It says "connected", but I was never asked for a pin.

As a side note, it was difficult to narrow down which device was in pairing mode because I had three different models on my desk powered on at once. It might be useful if the device name was displayed somewhere on the main screen or when in pairing mode when displaying the pin.

EDIT2: I'll peek the iOS specific firmware hopefully soon.

[cobraPA]

The nature of BLE Bluetooth devices is they will not show up in the iPhone Bluetooth list for pairing. They are expected to be paired with a compatible app first. Then they show up in the standard Bluetooth list… and you can unpair them there by removing them there. The iOS BLE firmware also enables pairing mode by default, for now, so it will try to connect to the phone as soon as Sideband starts.

[helmick43270]

Using iPhone 12 Pro Max running iOS 18.5 and rnode 1.8.2 plugged in to computer. Command line: rnodeconf /dev/ttyUSB0 -p. iPhone: start app, with rnode connection already enabled. Bluetooth pin entry dialog box should pop up. Enter pin displayed on rnode. It took me twenty or thirty times to figure that out.

[OzCleric]

Hi @cobraPA - I've got about 17 days left on my TestFlight trial and was wondering if you are planning to move to RNS 0.9.5 or 0.9.6?

If the answer is no, I completely understand.

Thanks 🙏

[cobraPA]

I'm hoping to have a new build of the current version prior to the expiration. I've been going down quite a rabbit hole with an RNode restart and bluetooth reconnect test case and it's taken a lot of time (still not resolved.) I have not worked out a good path to 0.9.5/0.9.6 either, given some license change concerns. But we will see there.

[b0urb0n]

Hopefully, I'm not wasting your time and disclosing an issue you're already aware of...

I was able to prep, compile, and install 1.8.1 of the iOS fork (de35a9dda0b86586dfd33b14295f9c176a9a5e3c) on my HT T114. I still had to do some extra steps to get pairing to work, but it seems to pair to my iPhone automagically now!

I was doing some tests with my laptop attached to a non-iOS-fork RNode running 1.8.2 (HT ESP32v3) just to throw some messages around via LoRa. I successfully announced with both nodes and sent messages in both directions. When I went to send a photo from my laptop (MeshChat 1.22) to my phone (SidebandOS 1.3):

• medium resolution
• ~14kB

It took a while but eventually got marked "delivered". However, the photo never shows up in Sideband. Also, when I exit the conversation and attempt to go back in, nothing happens. I've tried killing the app manually and by selecting "shutdown" from the menu. I'm still unable to enter that conversation on my phone.

I'm happy to share other info if you tell me what would help!

[cobraPA]

Killing the app manually is probably not good... I've done very little testing of anything doing that (not that it's a major problem, just that the RNode/BLE connection will stay up in background, so you could lose some receive data that way.) Using shutdown from the app menu is the best way to get a clean restart, and then if you want to swipe it away, no harm will be done.
I also can't speak to MeshChat capability so far, so thanks for that. I do testing of Sideband to Sideaband communication with RNode primarily, so that will be the most stable so far. While wifi coms generally work well, because iOS limits background modes for that, it is really limited to when the app is active.
I have seen some oddity in the "delivered' indications in the latest version also. I once had it marked failed after a 'delivered' indication. That came with merge from upstream and I haven't seen it again, but the end of message handling might have an issue sometimes. anyway, thanks for the report, either way.

[helmick43270]

Hello! I just found my way here this morning. I installed the SidebandOS app, so I can poke around for another 11 days before expiration. I tried several ways to connect to an RNode (normal firmware, 1.8.2 I think) until it said it was connected (sort of accidentally backing into it while thinking I’d see it more in front of me.) Weird, there seemed to be less functionality in my simultaneous attempts with an Android device to Bluetooth to another RNode. After no further success, gave up and resorted to wifi only. Started rnsd on Linux computer, sent announce from Android and iOS device, conversed, only one way, SidebandOS (1.5.0) to Android Sideband (1.6.1). Suspect the version differences and default encryption key size may have thrown it off. I even tried the lxm:// link but Android to iOS message said message thrown out, while iOS to Android lxm:// link worked. I haven’t tried rolling back to 1.5.0 on the Android, maybe that would solve my particular problem in that configuration.

[helmick43270]

Should I be using iOS-specific firmware in the rnode, or is that no longer necessary?

[cobraPA]

iOS BLE firmware is much easier to pair, as it starts with pairing enabled. The main firmware requires the pairing setup with rnodeconf or button push on the RNode, and isn't really tested yet, which is why people are posting workarounds that worked for them.

[addisjon]

Yes, I rolled back to Sideband 1.5.0 on the Android, with rnsd running on computer and all devices connected to wifi, and text messaging works. The lxm:// links work both ways also.

Which version of rnsd do you have running on your computer? I don't have a second phone to test with, so just trying Sideband 1.5.0 on iPhone to Sideband 1.5.0 on linux over wifi, but messages in either direction fail. When sending from iPhone to linux the error is 'Decryption by <...> failed: Token HMAC was invalid'.

Also, running Sideband 1.5.0 on linux seems to only work as a standalone instance. If I run rnsd first and then launch Sideband it crashes with 'Address already in use'.

I should note that initially I tried using the latest versions of rns (1.0.0) and Sideband (1.7.0) on linux, first ran rnsd, then launched Sideband, and everything worked with rnsd as the Shared Instance. But messages to and from the iPhone were failing with the same 'Token HMAC was invalid' error, so I tried downgrading Sideband to 1.5.0 thinking that might be the issue.

I'm also clearing all caches/configs when switching between versions.

[helmick43270]

If I remember correctly (it’s been a few days ago) I had 0.9.6 rnsd running on the computer, and Sideband 1.5.0 on both phones using the default interface. Now I can’t remember if I inadvertently had both phones communicating with each other directly over wifi, sidestepping the computer’s rnsd, or if that rnsd was providing the connection between the phones.

[addisjon]

If I remember correctly (it’s been a few days ago) I had 0.9.6 rnsd running on the computer, and Sideband 1.5.0 on both phones using the default interface. Now I can’t remember if I inadvertently had both phones communicating with each other directly over wifi, sidestepping the computer’s rnsd, or if that rnsd was providing the connection between the phones.

Ah thanks, that's helpful. I doubled-checked my version info on Sideband 1.5.0 on linux and noticed it was using rns-1.0.0 and lxmf-0.8.0, so I downgraded those packages (as well as the lxst package) to rns-0.9.3, lxmf-0.6.2, and lxst-0.2.7, and now messaging is working in both directions.

This also allowed me to launch Sideband with a separate rnsd instance already running (also version 0.9.3).

Now to test with some rnodes...

[helmick43270]

If I have SidebandOS open and Bluetooth enabled, then switch apps to Bluetooth settings and cycle the Bluetooth off and on to refresh (now I know that’s completely unnecessary) SidebandOS crashes. Just a note for later ruggedizing.

[OzCleric]

Just some general feedback; I've been able to consistently connect with my Heltec V3 over Bluetoorh running the CE version of RNode. The app is much more responsive and there now seems to be less UI issues. The only thing now would be getting the RNS version updated to the latest AES256 version.

[pfych]

Wondering if there's a repo somewhere I can clone to build & sign this myself vs using testflight? Thanks!

[cobraPA]

The build is ... rather complex... at the moment, due to the combination of kivy and PythonSwiftLink that allows it all to happen at all for iOS. I had hoped that the kivy team would standardize some on some newer Swift work, but that seems not to be something that will happen in the short term. The short answer is, not yet. There will probably not be a single repo for this build unless the development tools change. I have been planning to publish build instructions for quite a while, but the underlying library setups have been changing every few months and I would like to see the build stabilized some also. Anyway, not the best answer, but I do plan to try any make it available for others to build.

[CyberKiska]

For mass adoption, it is really important to have a working, up-to-date application on iOS.
The LoRa Heltec T114 module with RNode CE 1.75 firmware successfully connected to iOS 18 after 3-4 attempts.

But, sadly, even though announcements were sent and received successfully with other devices, it wasn't possible to connect to them (with the latest version of Sideband 1.7.0 on Android and the latest version of Nomadnet 0.8.0 on PC). When trying to send or receive text message, it just gives the error “State: Failed.”

It would be great if the Sideband build for iOS were updated from 1.5.0 to 1.7.0, which would allow communication with other actual applications.

In any case, thank you for your work!

[cobraPA]

Well, I'm going to ignore your accusations, because I like to think you want to have a discussion...

I agree with a comment you wrote in the much longer license discussion, which everyone can read for themselves at #790 (reply in thread) (assuming the link works.) I will try and quote it here.

markqvist
on Apr 24
Maintainer
No, that's incorrect. You can do that just fine. If you write a program that links against (or includes) GPL software, it's your program ("the entire work") that must also be under GPL.

There's nothing stopping you from also linking against (or including, or depending on) Reticulum. If that was the case, no piece of GPL-software could link against or even be distributed for running alongside non-GPL software. As an example, it would be verboten to run any GPL software on a proprietary operating system, like Windows, since that software ultimately links against and interacts with non-GPL parts of the OS.

For more information, read the GPLv3 in its entirety, and take note of the sections regarding "system libraries" and "aggregates".

However, if the intent was to subsume Reticulum itself into GPL, by including it directly within the source code of a GPL program, that is of course not possible. You will need to distribute Reticulum while maintaining its own license (or simply list it as a dependency for installation via other means), which should be perfectly acceptable.

Unfortunately, the part I agree with is the last stanza. It took me some time to absorb; and involved actually reading the licenses as you have told other people to do.

I guess the confusion can be partly my fault, but you have made some assumptions about how the binary distribution of Sideband for iOS is done, or you would like to think it is possible to 'distribute Reticulum separately' in the case of an iOS binary app.

So I would instead ask a couple questions of you. How do you think it would be possible to distribute binaries containing Reticulum under the new license?

I agree with your statement above:

The Reticulum license does not impose any restrictions on what you can distribute alongside it.

But it is very carefully worded to be license compliant (or maybe I am reading to much in to it of you are a multi-language speaker.)

The issue I see here is the use of 'alongside it', which is not possible with a binary distribution. And your comments in the other thread clearly state that your answer is to 'distribute Reticulum separately'.

So I guess in your words, I do not like the license change. But not for some nefarious reason, I don't think. I would say 'I do not like the license change because I believe I cannot distribute the SideBand iOS port legally for technical reasons.'

And specifically, (the technical reasons are) that the iOS binary does exactly what you say the license restricts. It combines the code portions of Reticulum, Sideband, and some GPL3 support libraries to make a binary distribution.

And I am a bit mad (miffed maybe, as I have spent a much larger time working with software from this project) that I had to spend a not insignificant amount of time to come to this conclusion.

I don't appreciate your 'soft-aggro' comments either, but some forms of attack are really best ignored, as I think you would normally agree.

I mentioned a couple of questions, so the possibly bigger one is: I have been following the porting efforts of other people and teams. What is your stance on another team porting the newly licensed Reticulum to another language and retaining the MIT license?

[markqvist]

I don't appreciate your 'soft-aggro' comments either, but some forms of attack are really best ignored, as I think you would normally agree.

Look, don't take it too seriously. It was meant as a half-sarcastic joke, mostly targeting myself.

What is your stance on another team porting [...]

The same as always. I've said this many times before, and it's also plastered quite clearly on the Reticulum website:

The Reticulum Protocol is the shared property of all people, I contribute it to the public domain.

If anyone puts in the work and effort to create an implementation of the Reticulum protocol, it should of course be completely their own choice how they distribute or license that, freely, commercially or in any other way.

The reference implementation of Reticulum, RNS, is licensed under the Reticulum License.

And specifically, (the technical reasons are) that the iOS binary does exactly what you say the license restricts. It combines the code portions of Reticulum, Sideband, and some GPL3 support libraries to make a binary distribution.

How? Sideband itself does not use any GPLv3 support libraries, so unless that is something specific to your iOS setup, that is not correct. Of course, you can't re-license the Sideband port itself under GPL, since it's already under CC BY-NC-SA4.0, which would not allow that, but that's another story.

So unless you're using something specific for iOS that actually requires the entire distribution to become GPLv3, there really is nothing stopping you from continuing to distribute it.

If there actually is some quirk in your build setup that really does require the entire distribution to become GPLv3, it would already have been impossible because of Sideband's own license, but that has nothing to do with the license for Reticulum.

I think you have to be specific for this to make any sense. I'm not saying that there can't be a problem if you've included extra libraries in your build of Sideband, but unless we know what those are, it's impossible to know what is actually up or down.

But again, in that case it wouldn't be the Reticulum license that's the problem, it would be that you used GPL libraries in violation of their license in the first case.

[cobraPA]

Well, that is unfortunate. It seems like you are not really trying to help the cause here...
The summary, it's not the Reticulum license change that is the issue, but that the Sideband license was already incompatible with GPL3 components. And you are right, I was not aware that the CC license you used had that limitation. It sounds like this will require closing the public beta for Sideband on iOS.

[markqvist]

It seems like you are not really trying to help the cause here...

I'd beg to differ. But it's pretty hard to be helpful when you're not being specific about the libraries you believe to be problematic.

I was not aware that the CC license you used had that limitation

That is indeed unfortunate, but it's very hard to know whether it is actually a problem unless we know what those components are. If you're not willing to disclose that, that's completely fine, but in that case, it's not that I'm not trying to help - it's that I can't.

[cobraPA]

It's not a big secret as you seem to be implying, as I have mentioned most of the iOS version main components in the past. There is a library/set of libraries called PythonSwiftLink (or possibly other names, it's been in flux as there is a lot of development going on.) It ties python to Swift on the iOS platform. Being familiar with kivy, I'm sure you have some knowledge of pyjnius/pyobjc (the libraries kivy uses for Android native API access/ iOS native access respectively.) The iOS objc version is workable for some things, but is not longer being extended due to the move to Swift. So a better solution is to have a form of Swift integration.

[helmick43270]

Hello! Many thanks to you both for all the effort you have invested in the code and also helping to keep us on the straight and narrow legal path. To me, legal stuff is either super-boring or infuriating, having had my share of bumps and scrapes. This conversation, however, has held my interest, although I still don’t understand and probably never will. I imagine that there’s probably a path forward that may involve off-loading the chassis and transmission of RNS to an rnode, leaving a future iOS device with a pretty light legal footprint. Seems like there has been talk of this in other discussions.

[markqvist]

Yeah, all in all, getting RNS running well and reliably on iOS is no small feat, due to all the restrictions imposed on applications on that platform.

Just to make it clear, there's nothing legally wrong with using Reticulum or RNS on iOS. The license is completely compatible with that.

As @cobraPA noted above, the specific problem here seems to be that he used some software components with a restrictive license, that does not allow them to be distributed unless the entire software package is put under the same restrictive license.

Whether those components are actually needed, or could be replaced with something else, or whether the problem is really there, I simply don't know, since I don't know what the components are.

The way Sideband is built for Android does not have any such problems, and I can only imagine there are similar paths available for iOS, although I know next to nothing about building for that platform, so I might be wrong here.

[cobraPA]

While that is all largely true, I think you are biasing this somewhat. In this case, there are three "restrictive license"s... I've tried to use one, the GPL3... but you get credit for the other two.

[cobraPA]

I would challenge you a bit here @markqvist ... I did a fairly thorough review when starting the Sideband iOS Beta. On reviewing it again, I note that Sideband and Reticulum are pretty careful to stick with MIT licensed external libraries (which I like, makes things simpler, if some GPL code is desired for another application, they are compatible.) But then other components (apps/RNode) have more restrictive licenses. And not just one, but looks like 3 primary licenses now... GPL, CC BY-NA-SA 4, new Reticulum license (I want to nickname it the Reticulum-Social-License, RSL) I always feel bad when I personally work on a project and use some others work, then find a work based on those dependencies is more restrictive. So, just a challenge to you to consider the license soup that seems to have developed here. I recently was doing some work on microReticulum and given this discussion, noted that the overall license state would be bad, if you just look on the surface of the RNode GPL3 license and want to incorporate RSL Reticulum directly. Of course, I suppose that is moot if you have to port RSL Reticulum to C/C++ and you consider that in the public domain. But direct conversion of a library still seems like a gray area there. I've seen you quote the study of ethics and philosophy to others, and I would certainly call that an ethical dilemma, even if we think the licensing is not an issue.

[markqvist]

While I wouldn't completely agree, I definitely don't think that's all wrong either. You wouldn't believe how much time I spend considering the "license soup" ;)

[cobraPA]

As a bit of a teaser... I mentioned microReticulum, it's really RNode/transfer node, and I have a branch I am putting LXMF in there (credit to atterman and stumpigit for the base). The licensing will never work as a binary, I don't think, so maybe it's just a test vehicle, but there is the start of an RNode / propagation node. (Or maybe as libraries this version will be ok.) Looking at memory, I'm not sure it will ever work on nRF52, but on the ESP32 variants with extra ram, seems entirely do-able (have to turn down the message size, message store size some, I would think.)

[cobraPA]

I've tagged the current Beta for iOS with the following note.
Note: Due to a licensing issue, the SidebandOS Beta will go on hiatus for a while. Thank you all for testing and providing feedback!

Due to the combination of GPL3 and the Sideband CC BY-NC-SA4.0 license not being compatible, the current build will be allowed to expire. There are some paths forward but I don't expect to have them resolved before the current beta expires. As above, thanks to all those that are testing and submitted feedback so far.