[Feature Request]: Disable amateur radio licensed mode on non-amateur bands

[oherrala]

Platform

Cross-Platform

Description

I've seen some amateur radio operators turning on the "licensed operator" mode on EU 868 MHz band. That band is not radio amateur band.

This can be harmful to the operation of the whole network. For example these changes affect network in this scenario and there are probably more:

• Prevent licensed users from rebroadcasting unlicensed traffic #6068
• Licensed usage compliance #6047

Can this "licensed operator" mode be disabled on non-amateur radio bands (e.g. EU_868)?

EDIT 1: Also if turning on the licensed operator mode removes the 10% duty cycle limitation on 868 MHz band then this mode can be illegal.

[madeofstown]

Excuse my ignorance but is it not the responsibility of the licensed operator to ensure they are broadcasting legally?
But honestly, I think that there should be a separate firmware to flash if you are licensed. Maybe even have the download locked until the user puts in a valid callsign.

[shalberd]

@thebentern @madeofstown No, it is definitely not ok to via firmware globally, per-user, turn off the node duty cycle limitation.

https://github.com/meshtastic/firmware/blob/master/src/modules/AdminModule.cpp#L1142

This should never, even in HAM mode, be the default setting right away, before even knowing the context of the band / RDEF setting used. It is asking for trouble inadvertently.
Let users override duty cycle by explicitely setting that in the LoRa settings, but do not do that automatically ever via firmware just because of a node-level / User setting (licensed operator).
Just my humble opinion.

Both in EU_433
#3371

and EU_868, max duty cycle is 10%.

Doesn't matter whether HAM mode or not.
Taken from: https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/300200_300299/30022002/03.02.01_60/en_30022002v030201p.pdf

@andrekir can we agree that what the firmware is doing, setting override_duty_cycle: true when handling handleSetHamMode is not the best idea? Is this on the radar somewhere?

[thebentern]

Honestly, I think that there should be a separate firmware to flash if you are licensed. Maybe even have the download locked until the user puts in a valid callsign.

I think we can put some more common-sense safeguards in place without throwing out a whole separate curated firmware, which frankly is a lot of extra distribution overhead I'm not very interested in at the moment.

But to your point about the responsibility of the operator, it's the same thing as someone going out and picking up a Baofeng radio and operating it on ham bands unlicensed. Nothing prevents you from doing that and operating illegally, and there are always ways around the safeguards. What I want to avoid is giving users easy ways to inadvertently violate the regulations

[oherrala]

What I want to avoid is giving users easy ways to inadvertently violate the regulations

Thanks @thebentern this is exactly what I wanted to hear. I'm happy 👍

Excuse my ignorance but is it not the responsibility of the licensed operator to ensure they are broadcasting legally?

@madeofstown I've seen Meshtastic enthusiastics (that don't have radio amateur license) tell ham operators to turn on the licensed mode because they are hams. Yes, the responsibility is by the radio operator, but new people getting into new cool tech can be confusing and misguided advice doesn't help. Meshtastic is one of those new cool radio techs that's easily picked up by people who are not trained on radio regulation, etc. but are really eager to share advice.

The iOS App mentions when turning on the Licensed Operator mode that the duty cycle restriction is removed on EU_868 band. This makes the firmware break ETSI EN300.220 V3.2.1 (2018-06) standard and is thus in violation to EU Directive 2014/53/EU and via that it is probably illegal in most member countries.

[shalberd]

precisely. The fact that duty cycle override_duty_cycle: true is automatically set regardless of region and band in LoRa, simply because at node user config level is_licensed: true, is extremely disconcerting. The EU regulations clearly state duty cycle limits, both in EU_868 as well as EU_433, doesn't matter whether HAM radio or not. This automatism is really asking for trouble at level regulator https://github.com/meshtastic/firmware/blob/master/src/modules/AdminModule.cpp#L1142

[oherrala]

@shalberd

The EU regulations clearly state duty cycle limits, both in EU_868 as well as EU_433, doesn't matter whether HAM radio or not.

EU regulations concerning 433 MHz band (part of short-range device bands defined in ECC Recommendation 70-03) doesn't affect users using the band with radio amateur license. The bands overlap and non-radio amateur users follow ECC Rec. 70-03 and radio amateur operators follow their respective country's radio amateur regulation. E.g. there's no duty cycle limit for ham radio operators on 433 MHz radio amateur band when using Meshtastic.

Most of the 70cm band radio amateur traffic would be in violation immediately if we had some duty cycle limits :)

[shalberd]

@oherrala I see, so you are e.g. most likely referring to the 70 cm band / 434 Mhz FM: https://uska.ch/en/bandplan/ when speaking of EU_433 for Meshtastic, yup. Good thing most citizens' band type / non-licensed users use EU_868 then :-)
So, the initial issue then remains with EU_868, correct? That one is not an official amateur radio band, thus, the duty cycle limitation there applies.
For EU_868 then, is_licensed should automatically be set to false when that region / band is selected. Also, it should be ensured that there, the override_duty_cycle is set to false.
We have a few users here on EU_868 where I see in the debug logs they have is_licensed set to true and probably, hopefully not, also set override_duty_cycle: true.

@thebentern @madeofstown @andrekir best would probably, for the regions / bands, to have an additional field on them that indicates whether they are even available for is_licensed / HAM mode from the start.
i.e. in the RDEF https://github.com/meshtastic/firmware/blob/master/src/mesh/RadioInterface.cpp#L15
#define RDEF(name, freq_start, freq_end, duty_cycle, spacing, power_limit, audio_permitted, frequency_switching, wide_lora)
have an additional boolean field for_licensed_use:true/false
What do you think? With that kind of information, firmware and config GUIs Web, IOS, Android could much easier cross-coordinate node-level is_licensed, lora-level override_duty_cycle, and the selected band / region.

Then, as a follow-up, the override_duty_cycle should not be set to true at level user/node
https://github.com/meshtastic/firmware/blob/master/src/modules/AdminModule.cpp#L1142

void AdminModule::handleSetHamMode(const meshtastic_HamParameters &p)
{
    // Set call sign and override lora limitations for licensed use
    strncpy(owner.long_name, p.call_sign, sizeof(owner.long_name));
    strncpy(owner.short_name, p.short_name, sizeof(owner.short_name));
    owner.is_licensed = true;
    config.lora.override_duty_cycle = true;
    config.lora.tx_power = p.tx_power;

but later, at level LoRa, only. Maybe I am asking for too much here, I don't know. Just sounding out some ideas.

[oherrala]

@shalberd Yes, this is mostly EU_868 issue. I think it's also the most used band in Europe.

EU_433 might benefit from separating the radio amateur users and SRD users from each other by using different frequencies, but that should be separate issue. This separation would help the requirement that radio amateur contacts are only allowed to another radio amateur station.

[SimbimChimbetov]

in my region are many new to this and know zero about regulations.

I saw some messages like "set hop to 7" or "turn on ignore duty cycle", "set node as router_client" as a responses to questions why they can't hear their friends.

In the past I tried to explain and optimize our mesh but now I gave up because no one cared.
The neighbor city is now full of routers, turned off duty cycles on 868 EU

[shalberd]

Same here in Switzerland, we have many nodes, first put into action by HAM radio people, that operate in the EU 868 band and have licensed operator / HAM / is_licensed: true mode enabled at the user level. One would think they know what they are doing, those HAMs, but apparently, they do not. I can see that in the Android App Debug log: is_licensed: true
My thinking is that is due to the newness of Meshtastic, those local HAMs simply don't know any better. Not only do they enable HAM mode, but they also configure their node as "Router" when it is sitting in a bag or pocket ...
I fully agree with @thebentern saying "What I want to avoid is giving users easy ways to inadvertently violate the regulations"
@caveman99 this should at least be a consideration for 3.0, in my opinion.

Same for override_duty_cycle: true, which is set when HAM mode is enabled: https://github.com/meshtastic/firmware/blob/master/src/modules/AdminModule.cpp#L1129
The fact that this can be enabled even on EU_868 is a grave config trap. In essence, whenever a user has set is_licensed and later sets EU_868, the is_licensed, overrride_duty_cycle etc. should definitely be set to false at first, not to true.