For some additional context, this alternative Ruby Discord was formed by folk who were banned from Ruby Discord for violating community guidelines.

It's always nice to see more Ruby community resources, but in this case I worry about linking without a caveat to a group that was formed out of being unwelcoming to certain demographics of Rubyists.

It's always nice to see more Ruby community resources, but in this case I worry about linking without a caveat to a group that was formed out of being unwelcoming to certain demographics of Rubyists.

So the 400 folks that joined should have no place to go because you consider me unwelcomed in the other Discord? Grow up and be open to the possibility that people disagree with you on things but you can still live in harmony with them.
You were calling 400 devs(some Rails core members) "alt-right/incel/red pill/racist rant quadrant of folk" by the way and since you are a member yourself, you know it well that there is none of that represented in this Discord.

It's great to see this PR. The Ruby Discord server is a great place. I hope it appears on Ruby's website and becomes an alternative place for the developers to talk about Ruby.

For some additional context, this alternative Ruby Discord was formed by folk who were banned from Ruby Discord for violating community guidelines.

It's always nice to see more Ruby community resources, but in this case I worry about linking without a caveat to a group that was formed out of being unwelcoming to certain demographics of Rubyists.

I don't find this interpretation entirely accurate. The Ruby Discord server is an alternative and could be hosted on Ruby's website. Anyone can join, anyone can not. People should be allowed to choose freely.

So the 400 folks that joined should have no place to go because you consider me unwelcomed in the other Discord? Grow up and be open to the possibility that people disagree with you on things but you can still live in harmony with them. You were calling 400 devs(some Rails core members) "alt-right/incel/red pill/racist rant quadrant of folk" by the way and since you are a member yourself, you know it well that there is none of that represented in this Discord.

I'm not a Ruby Discord admin, @gregmolnar, but admins reported you were "banned from [Ruby Discord] for consistent bad faith arguing, bullying, and witch hunting members." I don't know if you're doing that on your alternative server but it gave me pause for concern.

I'm not a Ruby Discord admin, @gregmolnar, but admins reported you were "banned from [Ruby Discord] for consistent bad faith arguing, bullying, and witch hunting members." I don't know if you're doing that on your alternative server but it gave me pause for concern.

Any proof of that? I don't even know why I was banned, so I can only speculate. And I was a member there for a few days, so not sure how could I consistently bully and whatnot members there.
As for you don't know what's going on in the other discord, you are a member, so you can look around and see for yourself. Don't get upset though if someone doesn't agree on some technical stuff with you, that happens there and we can all live with that.

I am a victim of bullying by @gregmolnar and have been forced to block him on multiple platforms. I can confirm he has engaged in bad faith trolling in communities such as the Ruby Discord. This PR is an extremely bad look. The last thing the official Ruby marketing materials needs is promoting people who think it's OK to engage in "edgelord" culture and go after people with personal attacks.

Guys, can you both fight with water bucket in some Moroccan Hammam ? Maybe it will calm you down. (i know a cheap one).

The PR has both Discords links, and i'm in both servers, i see just different ways of thinking.
You are both right in your own world.
Instead of fighting, let build a better ecosystem.

Hammam offer still valid

@enderahmetyurt can you lock the discussion if they keep arguing.

@seuros I agree, we should build a better ecosystem: one in which trolling by people who foster hate speech is not acceptable and clear lines are drawn with regard to acceptable, welcoming, inclusive behavior.

I am a victim of bullying by @gregmolnar and have been forced to block him on multiple platforms. I can confirm he has engaged in bad faith trolling in communities such as the Ruby Discord. This PR is an extremely bad look. The last thing the official Ruby marketing materials needs is promoting people who think it's OK to engage in "edgelord" culture and go after people with personal attacks.

A victim? I asked something along these lines: "I wonder what happened since Jarred?" and posted a screenshot of an old comment of yours. Why is it bad faith to ask questions and proof of claims? You guys really need to grow up.
By the way, you called Matz not so nice and Ruby Core as an accomplice of a crime the other day:

@gregmolnar and his allies have violated community guidelines in several spaces. What @jclusso and @gregmolnar mean by "open discussion" is to be unopposed in their toxic, harmful views

Do you have evidence of this? Other than disagreeing on certain things, I don't think I've ever did anything. But show me the proof if I did please.

The debate has not only heated up but also gone personal, and yet no moderation actions?

#3639 (comment) is probably not resolved, to be totally neutral.

This Discord was created in between boasts of being banned from the larger one as though it's a point of pride. The Ruby language could do with less intentionally inflammatory behaviour in a time when there is already a wedge being driven deep into its community.

@Akseluhreyter

You are right on this point. I just skimmed the discussions, so I might not have seen the complete picture.

But rest assured that I'm not taking sides. I just want my code to run.

Good luck to all.

I have other real bugs to handle.

This Discord was created in between boasts of being banned from the larger one as though it's a point of pride. The Ruby language could do with less intentionally inflammatory behaviour in a time when there is already a wedge being driven deep into its community.

So you say we don't deserve to have a place to talk Ruby with others? And we don't deserve the opportunity to attract more people there?
Do you happen to know(and have any evidence) of why we were banned? Other than asking uncomfortable questions, what is my crime?

Looking into the OP's background, I found this in DuckduckGo's cache. Sadly the repository is gone, so we have no way of confirming that this was not meant as the bullying it looks like.

Regarding @gregmolnar's ban I missed the discussion at the time, but in the time before that, I seem to remember him testing the waters of what Discord admins would let him get away with. Very annoying.

Regarding @gregmolnar's ban I missed the discussion at the time, but in the time before that, I seem to remember him testing the waters of what Discord admins would let him get away with. Very annoying.

Any proof of that? I was just asking questions and represented a different opinion the rubycentral drama and the DHH cancellation attempt than the admins were representing. That shouldn't be a crime IMHO.

Looking into the OP's background, I found this in DuckduckGo's cache. Sadly the repository is gone, so we have no way of confirming that this was not meant as the bullying it looks like.

My PR still exists. I wasn't hiding anything. I deleted the repo after making the PR and I didn't want anyone accidentally thinking I supported that. Plan-Vert/open-letter#36

Looking into the OP's background, I found this in DuckduckGo's cache. Sadly the repository is gone, so we have no way of confirming that this was not meant as the bullying it looks like.

My PR still exists. I wasn't hiding anything. I deleted the repo after making the PR and I didn't want anyone accidentally thinking I supported that. Plan-Vert/open-letter#36

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but it looks like you're admitting to violating Github's Terms of Use.
https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/acceptable-use-policies/github-bullying-and-harassment
https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/acceptable-use-policies/github-disrupting-the-experience-of-other-users

If ruby-lang.org opens the door to this Discord, what is the heuristic for getting other Discord servers added?

What is the metric to get a new Ruby discord server added? How many users does a Discord need to be considered? Does the Discord need to be only Ruby? Or would Rails / Hanami / Sinatra discords be considered?

I think if the plan is to do this, I think there should be very clear guidelines for adding community channels.

Greg and Jarrett also have histories of being polarizing figures. Neither one seems like a particularly neutral party, so I don't know if administrator actions and histories are also part of the process for getting new community channels added.

For example, if I were a trans individual and stumbled on the discord server from the official ruby site, I would expect it to be a safe place. Not a place run by someone who says things like this purposely trying to be inflammatory:

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but it looks like you're admitting to violating Github's Terms of Use. docs.github.com/en/site-policy/acceptable-use-policies/github-bullying-and-harassment docs.github.com/en/site-policy/acceptable-use-policies/github-disrupting-the-experience-of-other-users

So suggesting the letter not exist because I don't support it (aka disagree) is bullying now? Interesting. By that metric you're bullying me right now by disagreeing with me here.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but it looks like you're admitting to violating Github's Terms of Use. docs.github.com/en/site-policy/acceptable-use-policies/github-bullying-and-harassment docs.github.com/en/site-policy/acceptable-use-policies/github-disrupting-the-experience-of-other-users

So suggesting the letter not exist because I don't support it (aka disagree) is bullying now? Interesting. By that metric you're bullying me right now by disagreeing with me here.

Naming your fork open-letter-from-idiots is pretty clearly meant to be bullying/harassment?

Greg and Jarrett also have histories of being polarizing figures. Neither one seems like a particularly neutral party, so I don't know if administrator actions and histories are also part of the process for getting new community channels added.

For example, if I were a trans individual and stumbled on the discord server from the official ruby site, I would expect it to be a safe place. Not a place run by someone who says things like this purposely trying to be inflammatory:

So elementary level biological facts are offensive. Gotcha.

Naming your fork open-letter-from-idiots is pretty clearly meant to be bullying/harassment?

Calling someone racists without evidence is what bullying is.

I'll say the current Ruby Discord (not open Ruby) feels very respectful and has only ever petitioned for treating people with respect in this community. As a trans person, that Discord feels safe for me. A Discord server ran by transphobes does not. My existence is not a question, and many of the people banned from the Ruby discord were banned for treating trans people or immigrants as second class citizens.

Greg and Jarrett also have histories of being polarizing figures. Neither one seems like a particularly neutral party, so I don't know if administrator actions and histories are also part of the process for getting new community channels added.
For example, if I were a trans individual and stumbled on the discord server from the official ruby site, I would expect it to be a safe place. Not a place run by someone who says things like this purposely trying to be inflammatory:

So elementary level biological facts are offensive. Gotcha.

@gregmolnar They're not elementary biological facts though. And you admitted as such. Don't try to play coy.

If you guys want to debate this, maybe you should join the Discord instead of making a mess for the Ruby core team here. We welcome open discussion about Ruby and what is going on.

Naming your fork open-letter-from-idiots is pretty clearly meant to be bullying/harassment?

Calling someone racists without evidence is what bullying is.

You are literally the only person in this thread using that word. Your comments here are full of bad-faith conversation tactics like the Straw man.

Greg and Jarrett also have histories of being polarizing figures. Neither one seems like a particularly neutral party, so I don't know if administrator actions and histories are also part of the process for getting new community channels added.

For example, if I were a trans individual and stumbled on the discord server from the official ruby site, I would expect it to be a safe place. Not a place run by someone who says things like this purposely trying to be inflammatory:

Also, this is my opinion. You are free to disagree with it, but I still should have the right to have an opinion.
And it makes me feel really bad that you call me polarizing. So bad in fact, that I consider to leave this place. But I guess my feelings don't matter, only yours. That's true equality.

Actually Jarrett is right, let's not spam this place. I will excuse myself from further discussion here. If you still chose to throw accusations at me, post proof please.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but it looks like you're admitting to violating Github's Terms of Use. docs.github.com/en/site-policy/acceptable-use-policies/github-bullying-and-harassment docs.github.com/en/site-policy/acceptable-use-policies/github-disrupting-the-experience-of-other-users

So suggesting the letter not exist because I don't support it (aka disagree) is bullying now? Interesting. By that metric you're bullying me right now by disagreeing with me here.

Your PR literally was "Fixed a few mistakes." while deleting the entire file. If you didn't support it, you could just not have interacted with it.

Some relevant excerpts of the Github ToU:

• Piling on to or orchestrating disruptiveactivity in a way that amounts to abuse
• Posting off-topic comments
• Opening empty or meaningless issues or pull requests

Also, this is my opinion. You are free to disagree with it, but I still should have the right to have an opinion. And it makes me feel really bad that you call me polarizing. So bad in fact, that I consider to leave this place. But I guess my feelings don't matter, only yours. That's true equality.

Why do you think we owe you our time for your trolling? At least troll better than this. You sound like a whiny 5-year old who didn't get his toy car at the supermarket checkout. Grow up.

Actually Jarrett is right, let's not spam this place. I will excuse myself from further discussion here. If you still chose to throw accusations at me, post proof please.

Y'all only want to move the discussion now because you realize you're at a disadvantage with folks showing up with receipts for your awful, unkind behavior.

Actually Jarrett is right, let's not spam this place. I will excuse myself from further discussion here. If you still chose to throw accusations at me, post proof please.

Y'all only want to move the discussion now because you realize you're at a disadvantage with folks showing up with receipts for your awful, unkind behavior.

Not true. As I said above, feel free to post the accusation, but with proof please.

Looking into the OP's background, I found this in DuckduckGo's cache. Sadly the repository is gone, so we have no way of confirming that this was not meant as the bullying it looks like.

My PR still exists. I wasn't hiding anything. I deleted the repo after making the PR and I didn't want anyone accidentally thinking I supported that. Plan-Vert/open-letter#36

Man your PR is all messed up it just deletes what's in the Repo.

While the links here are not strictly vetted, in an ideal world, we would have a regular process to ensure that the communities we link to are active and that moderators are active. People are reporting some level of moderation on the currently listed Discord, which is a good thing. Whether it's too much or too little moderation is not Ruby core's call to make at this time.

I am closing this PR.

To clarify, my comment:

not Ruby core's call to make at this time.

Was poorly framed. This was in reference to the argument in the comments. I do not wish for PRs and issues on Ruby core repos to be about relitigating community moderators decisions.

About the content in the PR: There is a Ruby core editorial group. We've reviewed the proposed discord link and do not wish to add it. We've reviewed the current discord and do not wish to remove it.