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‎minutes/2018-11-13.irc.log

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2018-11-13 20:05:46 ~japaric hello everyone; let's start this meeting
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2018-11-13 20:05:57 jamesmunns hello!
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2018-11-13 20:06:28 ~japaric first, I'd like to discuss the procedure for making a roadmap for next year
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2018-11-13 20:06:41 ~japaric I have a proposal that I have written in the dropbox paper
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2018-11-13 20:06:51 @therealprof jamesmunns: I think it was Adam Green (the linkchecker)
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2018-11-13 20:06:54 ~japaric the idea is to get input from the community using an informal survey
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2018-11-13 20:07:37 ~japaric and then make a draft roadmap RFC by the end of January using that data and the input of all the teams
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2018-11-13 20:07:51 @therealprof +1
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2018-11-13 20:08:02 ~japaric then we can discuss feasibility of the roadmap with the Rust teams during RAH
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2018-11-13 20:08:24 ~japaric at least for the parts that involve language / compiler work
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2018-11-13 20:08:24 jamesmunns +1
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2018-11-13 20:08:44 @korken89 +1
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2018-11-13 20:09:54 ~japaric I expect that the Rust team will launch the call for 2019 blog posts later this year
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2018-11-13 20:10:01 ~japaric we should incorporate those in the roadmap as well
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2018-11-13 20:11:01 ~japaric ok, we don't have too many people today to vote but I think we start with the informal survey
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2018-11-13 20:11:15 ~japaric we can start**
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2018-11-13 20:11:56 jamesmunns (thanks therealprof)
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2018-11-13 20:12:30 @adamgreig right, sorry, I'm here
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2018-11-13 20:12:42 * cr1901 is present/listening as well
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2018-11-13 20:13:18 jamesmunns japaric: are you asking for more informal wishlist items now?
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2018-11-13 20:13:27 jamesmunns (making sure you aren't blocking on input)
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2018-11-13 20:13:44 ~japaric no, not right now
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2018-11-13 20:13:51 ~japaric we should also collect list of current TODO items from all the teams somewhere to have a high level view of the ongoing work
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2018-11-13 20:14:19 ~japaric but I can come up with some dropbox paper structure for that by next week
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2018-11-13 20:14:23 jamesmunns Also you mentioned blog posts, if any embedded people dont have their own blog, but want to post, guest posts on the embedded blog are totally welcome IMO
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2018-11-13 20:14:33 jamesmunns (for the year end call for posts)
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2018-11-13 20:14:37 @adamgreig +1 on starting to get a 2019 wishlist together
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2018-11-13 20:14:39 jamesmunns (or any time, really)
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2018-11-13 20:14:44 @adamgreig I think it would be easy to lose momentum once 2018 lands
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2018-11-13 20:14:55 adamgr therealprof: I think japaric added the linkchecker stuff to CI. I just recently told it to ignore the print.html that mdbook is corrupting.
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2018-11-13 20:14:57 ~japaric jamesmunns: guess posts sgtm
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2018-11-13 20:15:34 ~japaric jamesmunns: we should advertise that on the newletters, in general and make it more promimently once the call for 2019 blog posts is out
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2018-11-13 20:15:43 ~japaric that = guess posts are welcomed
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2018-11-13 20:16:09 jamesmunns also welcome: posts from the "chip ecosystem islands", like stm32-rs, etc. I plan to add a post there talking about the re-release of the nrf52 ecosystem for 2018 edition (explaining all the crate renames, etc)
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2018-11-13 20:17:10 @adamgreig on my stack is forming stm32-rs as an org rather than a repo and then it can have a nice introductory blog post
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2018-11-13 20:17:31 ~japaric ok, I'll create the 2019 wishlist issue after this meeting
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2018-11-13 20:17:35 @therealprof adamgreig: Yay!
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2018-11-13 20:17:36 @adamgreig +1
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2018-11-13 20:17:41 @korken89 that is really good, will show which are active as well
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2018-11-13 20:17:49 cr1901 ^msp430 still needs some work before I'd be comfortable making blog posts
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2018-11-13 20:17:52 @korken89 adamgreig: Awesome!
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2018-11-13 20:18:18 jamesmunns adamgreig: +11
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2018-11-13 20:18:21 @adamgreig glad everyone is very enthusiastic about helping :P
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2018-11-13 20:18:55 ~japaric cr1901: (before I forget: I tested building rust-std (core & alloc) for msp430 with llvm-assertions enabled the other day and it worked so it may be possible to revive pftbest's old PR to enable builds of rust-std for msp430)
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2018-11-13 20:19:34 cr1901 Yell at me if I haven't taken a look within the week
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2018-11-13 20:20:07 cr1901 I've been juggling a number of things, fairly badly (what else is new?)
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2018-11-13 20:20:17 jamesmunns cr1901: you're in good company, I feel
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2018-11-13 20:20:32 cr1901 Good to know
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2018-11-13 20:20:44 ~japaric ok, let's move to the next item in the agenda
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2018-11-13 20:20:50 ~japaric 2018 edition finish line
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2018-11-13 20:21:00 ~japaric I made a PR with the blog post I mentioned last week
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2018-11-13 20:21:07 ~japaric https://github.com/rust-embedded/blog/pull/25
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2018-11-13 20:21:43 ~japaric if you haven't reviewed it yet please give it a look
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2018-11-13 20:21:56 ~japaric jamesmunns just opened a PR for the last blocker
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2018-11-13 20:21:56 jamesmunns re: static guarantees, I moved type-state into static guarantees, but we need a paragraph or two explaining static guarantees in general for the "landing page"
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2018-11-13 20:22:03 jamesmunns (it was already merged)
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2018-11-13 20:22:19 jamesmunns and adamgreig opened a PR populating `tips for C/C++ developers`
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2018-11-13 20:22:26 jamesmunns so that won't be empty for much longer
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2018-11-13 20:22:47 @korken89 I feel quite out of touch with current issues after being gone for a while, I will try to jump in wherever I can help for now
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2018-11-13 20:24:10 ~japaric @resources team: how do you feel about including the '"does this compile on stable?" community effort' in the blog post?
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2018-11-13 20:24:33 @adamgreig is the question about doing it in the first place or including it in the blog post?
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2018-11-13 20:24:34 @therealprof I mentioned my concern in the PR.
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2018-11-13 20:24:40 jamesmunns japaric: maybe that can be a post-2018 goal?
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2018-11-13 20:24:41 ~japaric adamgreig: both, actually
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2018-11-13 20:24:55 @adamgreig I like the idea of having it
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2018-11-13 20:24:57 ~japaric jamesmunns: yeah, we can start it by the next newsletter
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2018-11-13 20:25:10 @adamgreig but could be convinced either way re blog post
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2018-11-13 20:26:32 ~japaric the other question is when do y'all want to put up this blog post?
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2018-11-13 20:26:57 ~japaric original ETA was tomorrow but I'm not sure if enough people have reviewed it yet
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2018-11-13 20:27:38 @therealprof Quite a few people already chimed in, no?
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2018-11-13 20:27:39 @adamgreig I don't think it's too controversial; maybe anotehr resources person could r+ it?
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2018-11-13 20:27:59 jamesmunns will read shortly, was more focused on the checklist than the blog post
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2018-11-13 20:28:06 @adamgreig well except for the issue on the stable awesome list thing
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2018-11-13 20:28:14 ~japaric and we should include the 2019 wishlist in this blog post so the last part of it will have to be updated
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2018-11-13 20:28:42 @adamgreig i propose we include that 2019 wishlist issue but do not include the stable awesome list
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2018-11-13 20:28:47 @adamgreig and instead announce that once 2018 is actually landed
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2018-11-13 20:29:00 ~japaric I can do that after this meeting (re 2019 wishlist modification)
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2018-11-13 20:29:03 ~japaric adamgreig: sgtm
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2018-11-13 20:29:05 @adamgreig we cna open the issue on awesome-embedded-rust and maybe start a few crates or something
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2018-11-13 20:29:10 jamesmunns adamgreig: +1
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2018-11-13 20:29:13 @korken89 +1
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2018-11-13 20:29:17 @adamgreig but a lot of things just won't build on stable yet anyway
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2018-11-13 20:29:21 @adamgreig on beta, maybe.. :p
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2018-11-13 20:29:32 @therealprof Sounds great. Either way I r+d it.
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2018-11-13 20:29:38 @adamgreig so this way we can make it a "rust stable is here! at last! embedded all the things! let's build a list of what now works on stable"
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2018-11-13 20:29:45 @adamgreig and it will give us something to do immediately post 2018 :p
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2018-11-13 20:30:06 ~japaric adamgreig: I like how that sounds
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2018-11-13 20:30:10 @therealprof adamgreig: I have the feeling a lot of stuff will compile on stable.
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2018-11-13 20:30:22 @adamgreig therealprof: well volunteered ;)
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2018-11-13 20:30:27 @adamgreig I mean stable right now, i.e. without const fn
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2018-11-13 20:30:43 ~japaric if something compiles on beta we can tag it as "compiles on 1.31"
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2018-11-13 20:30:48 @therealprof Drivers don't usually need it.
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2018-11-13 20:30:57 @adamgreig but even then a lot of things still have vestigial #[feature] things around
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2018-11-13 20:31:02 @therealprof It's applications that suck without.
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2018-11-13 20:31:18 @therealprof True.
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2018-11-13 20:31:38 ~japaric we are at the half hour mark; let's not go too off topic
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2018-11-13 20:31:49 @adamgreig can we resolve to open the issue on awesome-embedded but not put it in the blog post, then?
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2018-11-13 20:31:54 ~japaric ok then let's include the wishlist in the blog post and release it tomorrow
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2018-11-13 20:31:56 @adamgreig and we'll blog about it later, after 2018 lands
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2018-11-13 20:31:59 @adamgreig great
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2018-11-13 20:32:19 ~japaric any volunteer to open the issue in the awesome list repo?
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2018-11-13 20:32:38 @adamgreig will do
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2018-11-13 20:32:43 ~japaric adamgreig: thanks
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2018-11-13 20:32:54 @therealprof … and make sure it happens, too? :-p
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2018-11-13 20:33:01 @adamgreig I will open the issue :p
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2018-11-13 20:33:26 @therealprof Always rooting for the easy stuff, eh? ;)
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2018-11-13 20:34:01 ~japaric ok, let's do a quick past over the remaining book issues
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2018-11-13 20:34:16 ~japaric issue #2: getting started chapter
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2018-11-13 20:34:21 ~japaric the semihosting section landed
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2018-11-13 20:34:27 ~japaric and the registers section was updated
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2018-11-13 20:34:33 ~japaric the only thing left to cover is the #[interrupt] macro
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2018-11-13 20:34:46 cr1901 There's an interrupt macro ._.?
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2018-11-13 20:34:50 @therealprof Has it landed?
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2018-11-13 20:34:59 @adamgreig lol
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2018-11-13 20:35:30 @adamgreig https://github.com/rust-embedded/cortex-m-rt/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md#v065---2018-10-23
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2018-11-13 20:35:39 @therealprof cr1901: There's always been one. But now it's shiny and new and useful.
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2018-11-13 20:35:52 @adamgreig it's now an attribute instead of a macro-by-example
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2018-11-13 20:36:05 cr1901 I don't understand the distinction
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2018-11-13 20:36:07 @adamgreig and it's in cortex-m-rt instead of being made by svd2rust
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2018-11-13 20:36:19 cr1901 actually, I'll ask later
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2018-11-13 20:36:19 @adamgreig previously you wrote interrupt!(tim2, TIM2); fn tim2() { ... }
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2018-11-13 20:36:26 @adamgreig now you write #[interrupt] fn TIM2() { ... }
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2018-11-13 20:36:40 @therealprof Is there an issue for it?
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2018-11-13 20:36:42 @adamgreig (and it does some lovely things with static muts)
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2018-11-13 20:36:43 cr1901 huh...
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2018-11-13 20:36:51 @therealprof I can take it.
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2018-11-13 20:37:11 ~japaric re #[interrupt] macro we can add a section now using the hand written lm3s6965 crate, or add it after svd2rust is released and the stm32f30x crate is updated
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2018-11-13 20:37:34 ~japaric any preference? and any volunteer?
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2018-11-13 20:37:47 @therealprof Yeah, I thought we need a new svd2rust version.
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2018-11-13 20:38:14 @therealprof japaric: Didn't quite catch what you meant re lm3s6965, but I can take it.
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2018-11-13 20:38:33 ~japaric therealprof: https://github.com/japaric/lm3s6965
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2018-11-13 20:38:47 ~japaric "device crate" but only has interrupt stuff in it; no registers
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2018-11-13 20:39:00 ~japaric wrote it to test cortex-m-rtfm
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2018-11-13 20:39:00 jamesmunns (I'd like to discuss svd2rust at the end of the meeting, re: https://github.com/rust-embedded/svd2rust/pull/254)
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2018-11-13 20:39:03 @therealprof Hm…
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2018-11-13 20:39:11 @therealprof Not my forte.
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2018-11-13 20:39:38 @therealprof Prefer working with real hardware.
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2018-11-13 20:39:39 ~japaric therealprof: then you volunteer to write it after svd2rust v0.14 is out?
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2018-11-13 20:39:50 @adamgreig no reason not to write it in advance of svd2rust
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2018-11-13 20:39:51 @therealprof japaric: Yes.
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2018-11-13 20:39:54 @adamgreig we know exactly what it'l look like
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2018-11-13 20:40:08 @therealprof adamgreig: I agree.
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2018-11-13 20:40:12 ~japaric therealprof: thanks
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2018-11-13 20:40:41 ~japaric moving on, issue #5 HAL
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2018-11-13 20:40:46 ~japaric therealprof: jamesmunns any update?
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2018-11-13 20:41:10 jamesmunns none from my side
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2018-11-13 20:41:21 @therealprof Yeah, forgot about it.
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2018-11-13 20:41:29 @therealprof Will do some writing tonight I guess.
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2018-11-13 20:42:13 jamesmunns I probably wont have time in the upcoming week to write, but will gladly review
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2018-11-13 20:42:14 ~japaric therealprof: +1
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2018-11-13 20:42:22 ~japaric jamesmunns: +1
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2018-11-13 20:42:48 @adamgreig https://github.com/rust-embedded/awesome-embedded-rust/issues/115 is open
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2018-11-13 20:42:52 ~japaric ok, next issue, #6, is static guarantees
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2018-11-13 20:43:04 ~japaric type state was moved under it
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2018-11-13 20:43:14 ~japaric we have to write some text for the static guarantees landing page
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2018-11-13 20:43:42 ~japaric (if I understood jamesmunns correctly)
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2018-11-13 20:43:48 jamesmunns Really just 2-3 paragraphs intro'ing all the cool stuff that can be checked at compile time would be perfect
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2018-11-13 20:43:52 jamesmunns help very much wanted
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2018-11-13 20:44:04 jamesmunns japaric: yup exactly
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2018-11-13 20:44:35 ~japaric jamesmunns: I can give it a go, I guess
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2018-11-13 20:44:57 jamesmunns japaric: +1
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2018-11-13 20:45:28 jamesmunns Doesn't have to be comprehensive, just an intro. I think the intro will help others write larger subsections, like type-state-programming
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2018-11-13 20:45:49 ~japaric next issue #7 tips for C/C++ programmers
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2018-11-13 20:45:56 ~japaric adamgreig: I saw a PR
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2018-11-13 20:46:15 jamesmunns https://github.com/rust-embedded/book/pull/81
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2018-11-13 20:47:15 @therealprof I'll do a pass later.
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2018-11-13 20:47:23 @adamgreig yep, it's up at last
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2018-11-13 20:47:46 @adamgreig this is rougher than the concurrency pr was, it will need a bit more work
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2018-11-13 20:47:56 ~japaric adamgreig is looking for feedback so please give it a read and comment
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2018-11-13 20:47:58 @adamgreig (and I already remembered the repr() stuff from last meeting needed to add on)
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2018-11-13 20:48:13 ~japaric adamgreig: thanks for working on this
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2018-11-13 20:49:03 ~japaric issue #9, book outline: done; the PR just landed
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2018-11-13 20:49:42 ~japaric issue #10, the debugonomicon; ryankurte is not around so we'll check next week
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2018-11-13 20:49:50 ~japaric but the book was renamed
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2018-11-13 20:50:35 ~japaric last 10 minutes is open floor for updates
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2018-11-13 20:50:42 ~japaric jamesmunns: you wanted to discuss a svd2rust PR
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2018-11-13 20:50:59 jamesmunns Yup: https://github.com/rust-embedded/svd2rust/pull/254
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2018-11-13 20:51:19 jamesmunns But this may tie in to the post-2018 discussion
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2018-11-13 20:51:25 jamesmunns More abstractly:
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2018-11-13 20:51:43 jamesmunns "How do we see ourselves developing and maintaining embedded crates in 2019"
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2018-11-13 20:51:44 cr1901 japaric: Now that msp430 is working again, I can looking into AT2XT for the showcase. However, panic_implementation was removed recently, so I need to fix that.
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2018-11-13 20:52:05 ~japaric cr1901: $ sed -i s/panic_implementation/panic_handler
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2018-11-13 20:52:08 jamesmunns This PR introduces feature gates for each peripheral generated by svd2rust, which speeds compile time
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2018-11-13 20:52:13 cr1901 yes, sorry
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2018-11-13 20:52:21 @adamgreig cr1901: no, that's the fix
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2018-11-13 20:52:37 jamesmunns however, therealprof has pointed out that this can make it harder to abstract over -pac crates from higher levels
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2018-11-13 20:52:54 cr1901 adamgreig: Oh, whoops
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2018-11-13 20:53:22 jamesmunns If anyone has feelings on that, feel free to comment on that PR
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2018-11-13 20:53:38 jamesmunns This is a breaking change, so it either needs to go in now, or wait for 0.15.0.
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2018-11-13 20:53:50 jamesmunns (or never)
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2018-11-13 20:54:15 cr1901 Yea, that would be the msp430-rt crate, and pftbest has been busy (and will continue to be busy) with meatspace AFAIK
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2018-11-13 20:54:42 jamesmunns But in general, I think we should sit down as a WG/community, and come up with a more structured plan of how we /want/ the ecosystem to look. I should probably write a blog post about this
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2018-11-13 20:54:51 @adamgreig yes please
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2018-11-13 20:55:01 @adamgreig I think that's really what's underlying a lot of these issues
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2018-11-13 20:55:02 @therealprof +1
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2018-11-13 20:55:10 jamesmunns There are a couple really good efforts, stm32-rs in particular that are trying new things
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2018-11-13 20:55:28 jamesmunns But I don't think we have a really good picture how things work "at scale"
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2018-11-13 20:55:30 @adamgreig if you want "trying new things" I have a very different stm32 project coming soon ;)
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2018-11-13 20:55:45 @adamgreig but yea
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2018-11-13 20:55:58 @adamgreig we're starting to build up a picture of pacs -> hals -> bsps, embedded-hal, and drivers
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2018-11-13 20:56:21 @adamgreig I think the features-per-periph in svd2rust is contentious because it's adding complexity to try and escape long compile times
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2018-11-13 20:56:32 @adamgreig but in a way that's not necessarily what we want long-term
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2018-11-13 20:56:33 ~japaric jamesmunns: seems like this PR is going to require quite some discussion to make a decision so I'd like to propose to postpone it for v0.15 (or never depending on the outcome)
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2018-11-13 20:56:57 jamesmunns japaric: yeah, I felt like that might be the decision.
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2018-11-13 20:57:18 @adamgreig it's kind of a shame because reducing compile times would be really nice for a lot of users very quickly
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2018-11-13 20:57:33 @adamgreig but we maybe need to resolve the philosophical argument around it first
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2018-11-13 20:57:50 @adamgreig the svd2rust-generated crate is always by far the longest compile in any embedded apps i'm building
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2018-11-13 20:57:51 @therealprof +1
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2018-11-13 20:58:02 jamesmunns Yeah, its a big win for some people, myself in particular (takes my 8 minute build down to 30-40 seconds for one crate)
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2018-11-13 20:58:03 @therealprof … and CI.
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2018-11-13 20:58:40 jamesmunns but this might be a patch/hack, instead of a needed architectural change
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2018-11-13 20:58:40 @therealprof However whether it's a win at all depends on whether you'd like to opt for specific peripherals.
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2018-11-13 20:58:50 cr1901 I thought the idea was SVD crates were meant to be fairly static
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2018-11-13 20:59:06 @therealprof I think that a lot of people (me included) would be rather on the "give me all" side of things.
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2018-11-13 20:59:09 jamesmunns cr1901: things like changing build profiles can force a rebuild
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2018-11-13 20:59:19 @adamgreig and every ci run
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2018-11-13 20:59:21 jamesmunns e.g. going from opt level 0 to 1 or back
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2018-11-13 20:59:27 jamesmunns and CI runs, which are always clean builds
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2018-11-13 20:59:28 cr1901 hmmm
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2018-11-13 20:59:40 * cr1901 hasn't run into this problem yet
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2018-11-13 20:59:44 jamesmunns its papercuts, for sure
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2018-11-13 20:59:47 @adamgreig possibly smaller device crates?
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2018-11-13 20:59:52 @adamgreig it scales poorly with large mcus
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2018-11-13 20:59:53 jamesmunns yeah
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2018-11-13 21:00:01 @adamgreig well I mean it scales linearly but is still annoying
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2018-11-13 21:00:02 jamesmunns the fact that its a single compilation unit is really rough
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2018-11-13 21:00:10 @adamgreig hah that too
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2018-11-13 21:00:13 ~japaric ok, we are almost out of time so I'll make a PR to release v0.14.0 (w/o jamesmunns PR) and we can vote on it using reviews
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2018-11-13 21:00:25 @adamgreig 17 other cpu threads sitting idle while one desperately reads megabytes of rust
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2018-11-13 21:00:28 @therealprof There's a heavily discussed Rust RFC about introducing bitfields.
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2018-11-13 21:00:39 cr1901 adamgreig: I mean, msp430 micros aren't exactly large
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2018-11-13 21:00:44 jamesmunns therealprof: oh really? link please?
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2018-11-13 21:00:48 @adamgreig cr1901: yea, which is probably why you've not run into it so much
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2018-11-13 21:00:53 @adamgreig on an stm32f4 crate it might take 1-2min to build
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2018-11-13 21:00:55 * cr1901 has a visceral reaction to bitfields
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2018-11-13 21:00:57 cr1901 hmmm
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2018-11-13 21:01:15 @therealprof :-D
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2018-11-13 21:01:20 ~japaric ok, I'm going to oficially end this meeting. Thanks everyone for attending!

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