Discussion: meetings/2025-10-03

[jeromelecoq]

Forum to discuss the presentation

[jeffgavornik]

Very interesting talk & findings. The overall conclusion that V1 is not representing/predicting temporal relations is at odds with the conclusions from my work but I think that is down to substantive differences in experiment design and methodology. Specifically:

1. Our publications show that V1 circuits respond to temporal violations (Gavornik Bear 2014, Price et al 2023, Kudstrup et al 2024) only after animals have been trained on a specific sequence across sessions demarcated by a period of sleep (Hosamane et al 2025). Unpublished data shows that VEP latency shifts in the direction of expected timing when unexpected times are used after training (if anyone is interested let me know and I'll dig it up). We know that this learning requires training, an intact hippocampus (Finnie et al 2021) and M2 receptors local to V1 (Sarkar et al 2024). Absent these components, we see no evidence of temporal response specificity (see Knudstrup et al 2025 Fig 5 C-D).
2. Sequence elements in our experiments are typically much shorter than used here. Though I never fully explored the limits, pilot experiments with longer element times (500 ms or above) drove plasticity that did not seem specific to sequence order or timing, more akin perhaps to SRP (many publications from Mark Bear's lab) which seems functionally and mechanistically distinct from the spatio-temporal learning I've been studying.

After training, we have shown that V1 responds differently when expected stimuli occur in the correct order but with unexpected timing and that a response is generated at the expected time of a stimulus even when the visual input is static (e.g. we hold a sequence element onscreen 2x longer than expected). I think the best explanation for these findings is that experience-driven plasticity can code temporal expectations into V1 circuits, but that this coding depends on experimental design elements that were absent in Najafi's work.

Finally, since he's now a successful postdoc in Bob Datta's lab at HMS I'm going to blame Byron for our failure to add stimulus markers to the figures in his paper. Najafi is correct, those figure could have been clearer ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[jeromelecoq]

Thanks @jeffgavornik for those detailed comments.
It looks like you are advocating for shorter ISI oddballs.

Farzaneh's lab could be correct in their interpretation with their current parameters.

I am currently looking at the parameters of our jittered session. I think we were planning for a base ISI of 0.686 (0.343ms gray, 0.343ms drifting) with longer drifting grating duration (1.0 , 1.5) + one omission.

What about we instead do drifting grating duration of 0.150ms, 0.5ms, 1.0ms and omission?

Perhaps that would allow to compare across short and longer range?

[jeffgavornik]

Yes, to test the temporal components in V1 short stimuli work best for us. We did use 150 ms for a lot of our recordings, but have seen similar results in the 250 ms range. I haven't tried drifting gratings specifically, will be curious to see the results.

[farznaj]

hi jeff; point 1 is interesting ... more to chat in our meeting...
re point 2, not sure i follow since our stimuli were 200ms , ie within the range youve studied. did you mean something else?

[farznaj]

TL/TR: definition of temporal expectation error matters ... a lot!

Details:

hi; i had a brief meeting with jeff;
below summarizes my take on our findings compared with jeff's results:

1. our stim duration is similar to jeff's, so that shouldnt be the issue here.

2. jeff's j neuro paper fig 5 is the closest to our paper in terms of methodology and somewhat terminology ; that paper , similar to ours, finds no evidence of temporal expectation errors.
   more details on their methods/terminology:

a) they introduce early/late stimuli as temp errors, kinda similar to our paper's short/long interval deviants. that said, note that we have a gray screen btwn individual stimuli, but they dont; so early/late for them implies a stim duration change too, but for our deviants, grating dur remains the same and instead gray (ISI) dur changes.

b) they dont do training/testing days, ie early/late stimuli are shown to the mouse on the 1st day, again somewhat similar to our paper [see my point 4 below].

papers for ref:
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/45/29/e1859242025
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.09.11.673960v2

3. jeff's elife paper (and cerebral cortex), defines temporal errors in a different way than us and i think that's key to our different conclusions:

• they call 'unexpected ABBD , instead of expected ABCD', temp error; ie an unexpectedly longer stimulus that replaces another stimulus in a sequence
• in contrast we call the following a temp error : an unexpected interval ; ie 'A-unexpected gray duration-A , instead of A-expected gray duration-A'

4. related to jeff's interesting point above on potential sleep effects:
   we 1st introduced random ISI sessions, then introduced fixed ISI sessions including deviant ISIs.
   but what if we had introduced deviant ISIs in 'test' days after several 'training' days lacking deviant ISIs ....
   we didnt quite do this; so that's something to be discussed/tested.

[jeromelecoq]

Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are important? I am not sure I follow the reasoning.
A gray stimulus is a stimulus.
In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing AG AG AG -> AG AGG AG = temporal error
In Gavornik lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error

Is that right?

[jeffgavornik]

I must have misunderstood the timeline of your experiments. We can figure it out when we talk. From: Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 4:48 PM To: AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing ***@***.***> Cc: Gavornik, Jeff ***@***.***>, Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing] Discussion: meetings/2025-10-03 (Discussion #117) [EXTERNAL] * External Email - Caution * hi jeff; point 1 is interesting ... more to chat in our meeting... re point 2, not sure i follow since our stimuli were 200ms , ie within the range youve studied. did you mean something else? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/discussions/117*discussioncomment-14680386__;Iw!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!qoke83aDVsmSKPhEi_M-PCyeClK9I8csMIlz7anYaEfA6FvCUWVBN9vIGgDBjmG-LalVTr_Bp3qf9zVBAqNyoaT9Y2VCCOTUUabGfI8A$>, or unsubscribe<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AOAFPORUFYT4CYITEGQHBJD3XVORLAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRYGAZTQNQ__;!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!qoke83aDVsmSKPhEi_M-PCyeClK9I8csMIlz7anYaEfA6FvCUWVBN9vIGgDBjmG-LalVTr_Bp3qf9zVBAqNyoaT9Y2VCCOTUUbhqfSPc$>. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

[farznaj]

We are extending the interval , So: AGA becomes AGGA for us. Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to gratings. So I don’t see them the same.

…

On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> wrote: Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are important? I am not sure I follow the reasoning. A gray stimulus is a stimulus. In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing AGAGA -> AGAAGA = temporal error In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error Is that right? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#117 (reply in thread)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QSFLRLGZU3P2ELBGBT3X3REBAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGI2TQOI> . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14692589 @github.com>

[jeromelecoq]

Thanks I do not know if gray screen is actually low salience, that is rather subjective. But can you expand your point ? How Does those differences explain the difference between your studies ? *Jérôme* On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:53 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> wrote:

…

We are extending the interval , So: AGA becomes AGGA for us. Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to gratings. So I don’t see them the same. On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> wrote: > Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are important? I > am not sure I follow the reasoning. > A gray stimulus is a stimulus. > In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing AGAGA > -> AGAAGA = temporal error > In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error > > Is that right? > > — > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > < #117 (reply in thread)>, > or unsubscribe > < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QSFLRLGZU3P2ELBGBT3X3REBAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGI2TQOI> > . > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message > ID: > <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14692589 > @github.com> > — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#117 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AATAHT2DQSNE4AKPSMBE3H33X33CHAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGMYDINY> . You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14693047 @github.com>

[farznaj]

Visual experts can comment here but gray screen doesn’t have any features: edges shapes etc ; that’s why i said low salience. Jeff what’s your thought? Re temp error definitions : In our case the stimulus arrives earlier or later after the gray screen. In Jeff’s case the stimulus is replaced by the previous stimulus. On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 3:16 AM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> wrote:

…

Thanks I do not know if gray screen is actually low salience, that is rather subjective. But can you expand your point ? How Does those differences explain the difference between your studies ? *Jérôme* On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:53 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> wrote: > We are extending the interval , So: > AGA becomes AGGA for us. > > Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to gratings. > So > I don’t see them the same. > > > > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> > wrote: > > > Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are important? > I > > am not sure I follow the reasoning. > > A gray stimulus is a stimulus. > > In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing > AGAGA > > -> AGAAGA = temporal error > > In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error > > > > Is that right? > > > > — > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > > < > #117 (reply in thread)>, > > > or unsubscribe > > < > https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QSFLRLGZU3P2ELBGBT3X3REBAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGI2TQOI> > > > . > > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message > > ID: > > > <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14692589 > > > @github.com> > > > > — > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > < #117 (comment)>, > or unsubscribe > < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AATAHT2DQSNE4AKPSMBE3H33X33CHAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGMYDINY> > . > You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: > <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14693047 > @github.com> > — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#117 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QQAEOULIQL7R66ZQBL3X5A43AVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGUYDKMY> . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14695053 @github.com>

[jeffgavornik]

The transition between a patterned stimulus and gray screen is salient (in that it drives a large/clear neural response) even if the gray screen itself is not. On point two, to make sure it’s clear: when we replace the element with itself there is no change in the visual stimulus (e.g. element B stays on the screen for twice as long, not B-gray-B) From: Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> Date: Thursday, October 16, 2025 at 9:09 AM To: AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing ***@***.***> Cc: Gavornik, Jeff ***@***.***>, Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing] Discussion: meetings/2025-10-03 (Discussion #117) [EXTERNAL] * External Email - Caution * Visual experts can comment here but gray screen doesn’t have any features: edges shapes etc ; that’s why i said low salience. Jeff what’s your thought? Re temp error definitions : In our case the stimulus arrives earlier or later after the gray screen. In Jeff’s case the stimulus is replaced by the previous stimulus. On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 3:16 AM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> wrote:

Thanks I do not know if gray screen is actually low salience, that is rather subjective. But can you expand your point ? How Does those differences explain the difference between your studies ? *Jérôme* On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:53 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> wrote: > We are extending the interval , So: > AGA becomes AGGA for us. > > Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to gratings. > So > I don’t see them the same. > > > > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> > wrote: > > > Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are important? > I > > am not sure I follow the reasoning. > > A gray stimulus is a stimulus. > > In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing > AGAGA > > -> AGAAGA = temporal error > > In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error > > > > Is that right? > > > > — > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > > < > #117 (reply in thread)<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/discussions/117*discussioncomment-14692589__;Iw!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHBjkH_EH$>>, > > > or unsubscribe > > < > https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QSFLRLGZU3P2ELBGBT3X3REBAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGI2TQOI<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QSFLRLGZU3P2ELBGBT3X3REBAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGI2TQOI__;!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHFT48sjo$>> > > > . > > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message > > ID: > > > <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14692589 > > > @github.com> > > > > — > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > < #117 (comment)<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/discussions/117*discussioncomment-14693047__;Iw!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHH8FLAIH$>>, > or unsubscribe > < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AATAHT2DQSNE4AKPSMBE3H33X33CHAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGMYDINY<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AATAHT2DQSNE4AKPSMBE3H33X33CHAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGMYDINY__;!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHG2X2hXu$>> > . > You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: > <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14693047 > @github.com> > — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#117 (comment)<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/discussions/117*discussioncomment-14695053__;Iw!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHPWJ-JxP$>>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QQAEOULIQL7R66ZQBL3X5A43AVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGUYDKMY<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QQAEOULIQL7R66ZQBL3X5A43AVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGUYDKMY__;!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHKwb0eHw$>> . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14695053 @github.com>

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[farznaj]

All of this makes sense. On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 9:37 AM jeffgavornik ***@***.***> wrote:

…

The transition between a patterned stimulus and gray screen is salient (in that it drives a large/clear neural response) even if the gray screen itself is not. On point two, to make sure it’s clear: when we replace the element with itself there is no change in the visual stimulus (e.g. element B stays on the screen for twice as long, not B-gray-B) From: Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> Date: Thursday, October 16, 2025 at 9:09 AM To: AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing ***@***.***> Cc: Gavornik, Jeff ***@***.***>, Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing] Discussion: meetings/2025-10-03 (Discussion #117) [EXTERNAL] * External Email - Caution * Visual experts can comment here but gray screen doesn’t have any features: edges shapes etc ; that’s why i said low salience. Jeff what’s your thought? Re temp error definitions : In our case the stimulus arrives earlier or later after the gray screen. In Jeff’s case the stimulus is replaced by the previous stimulus. On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 3:16 AM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> wrote: > Thanks > > I do not know if gray screen is actually low salience, that is rather > subjective. > > But can you expand your point ? How Does those differences explain the > difference between your studies ? > > *Jérôme* > > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:53 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> > wrote: > > > We are extending the interval , So: > > AGA becomes AGGA for us. > > > > Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to gratings. > > So > > I don’t see them the same. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> > > wrote: > > > > > Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are > important? > > I > > > am not sure I follow the reasoning. > > > A gray stimulus is a stimulus. > > > In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing > > AGAGA > > > -> AGAAGA = temporal error > > > In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error > > > > > > Is that right? > > > > > > — > > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > > > < > > > #117 (reply in thread) < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/discussions/117*discussioncomment-14692589__;Iw!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHBjkH_EH$>>, > > > > > > or unsubscribe > > > < > > > https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QSFLRLGZU3P2ELBGBT3X3REBAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGI2TQOI < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QSFLRLGZU3P2ELBGBT3X3REBAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGI2TQOI__;!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHFT48sjo$>> > > > > > > . > > > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this > thread.Message > > > ID: > > > > > > <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14692589 > > > > > > @github.com> > > > > > > > — > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > > < > #117 (comment) < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/discussions/117*discussioncomment-14693047__;Iw!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHH8FLAIH$>>, > > > or unsubscribe > > < > https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AATAHT2DQSNE4AKPSMBE3H33X33CHAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGMYDINY < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AATAHT2DQSNE4AKPSMBE3H33X33CHAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGMYDINY__;!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHG2X2hXu$>> > > > . > > You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: > > > <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14693047 > > > @github.com> > > > > — > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > < #117 (comment) < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/discussions/117*discussioncomment-14695053__;Iw!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHPWJ-JxP$>>, > or unsubscribe > < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QQAEOULIQL7R66ZQBL3X5A43AVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGUYDKMY < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QQAEOULIQL7R66ZQBL3X5A43AVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZGUYDKMY__;!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHKwb0eHw$>> > . > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message > ID: > <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14695053 > @github.com> > — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub< https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/discussions/117*discussioncomment-14698992__;Iw!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHOPyEmfj$>, or unsubscribe< https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AOAFPOW2PDUZCTFUYAFX4KD3X6KJHAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINRZHA4TSMQ__;!!NZvER7FxgEiBAiR_!p3G1R4IbJ_aOoJ72Sfm9hfTOkyLdFOeCgxzBWYQ-nQN9Mn5y9lzFWgPgWiM3z-NeSJOTeLweGR41bsKSfqyJ5TmoE1kASmGlHPTGp7aX$>. 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[farznaj]

More on the potential effect of sleep

We have actually done what's in Jeff eLife 2025 paper that's multiple exposure days to stimuli including omissions. But in our hands never omission responses emerged.

So sleep can't explain the difference.

[jeromelecoq]

Thanks Farzaneh Is this data in your manuscript ? *Jérôme*

…

On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 7:32 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> wrote: More on the potential effect of sleep We have actually done what's in Jeff eLife 2025 paper that's multiple exposure days to stimuli including omissions. But in our hands never omission responses emerged. So sleep can't explain the difference. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#117 (reply in thread)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AATAHT67HFFJAV6EIHNPRF33YGRCPAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINZRGQ4TENY> . You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14714927 @github.com>

[farznaj]

Yes. Manuscript averages all sessions for each parading (fix/jitter. Short/ long. Random) On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 12:41 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> wrote:

…

Thanks Farzaneh Is this data in your manuscript ? *Jérôme* On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 7:32 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> wrote: > More on the potential effect of sleep > > We have actually done what's in Jeff eLife 2025 paper that's multiple > exposure days to stimuli including omissions. But in our hands never > omission responses emerged. > > So sleep can't explain the difference. > > — > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > < #117 (reply in thread)>, > or unsubscribe > < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AATAHT67HFFJAV6EIHNPRF33YGRCPAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINZRGQ4TENY> > . > You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: > <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14714927 > @github.com> > — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#117 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADTJ7QTHRM2ANRU6XOJJ7VL3YJUUFAVCNFSM6AAAAACIQ6YD7OVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTINZRG44TIMI> . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: <AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing/repo-discussions/117/comments/14717941 @github.com>