Discussion: meetings/2025-10-03 #117
Replies: 9 comments 6 replies
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Very interesting talk & findings. The overall conclusion that V1 is not representing/predicting temporal relations is at odds with the conclusions from my work but I think that is down to substantive differences in experiment design and methodology. Specifically:
After training, we have shown that V1 responds differently when expected stimuli occur in the correct order but with unexpected timing and that a response is generated at the expected time of a stimulus even when the visual input is static (e.g. we hold a sequence element onscreen 2x longer than expected). I think the best explanation for these findings is that experience-driven plasticity can code temporal expectations into V1 circuits, but that this coding depends on experimental design elements that were absent in Najafi's work. Finally, since he's now a successful postdoc in Bob Datta's lab at HMS I'm going to blame Byron for our failure to add stimulus markers to the figures in his paper. Najafi is correct, those figure could have been clearer ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
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I must have misunderstood the timeline of your experiments. We can figure it out when we talk.
From: Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***>
Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 4:48 PM
To: AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing ***@***.***>
Cc: Gavornik, Jeff ***@***.***>, Mention ***@***.***>
Subject: Re: [AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing] Discussion: meetings/2025-10-03 (Discussion #117) [EXTERNAL]
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hi jeff; point 1 is interesting ... more to chat in our meeting...
re point 2, not sure i follow since our stimuli were 200ms , ie within the range youve studied. did you mean something else?
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We are extending the interval , So:
AGA becomes AGGA for us.
Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to gratings. So
I don’t see them the same.
…On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***> wrote:
Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are important? I
am not sure I follow the reasoning.
A gray stimulus is a stimulus.
In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing AGAGA
-> AGAAGA = temporal error
In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error
Is that right?
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Thanks
I do not know if gray screen is actually low salience, that is rather
subjective.
But can you expand your point ? How Does those differences explain the
difference between your studies ?
*Jérôme*
On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:53 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***>
wrote:
… We are extending the interval , So:
AGA becomes AGGA for us.
Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to gratings.
So
I don’t see them the same.
On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***>
wrote:
> Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are important?
I
> am not sure I follow the reasoning.
> A gray stimulus is a stimulus.
> In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing
AGAGA
> -> AGAAGA = temporal error
> In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error
>
> Is that right?
>
> —
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Visual experts can comment here but gray screen doesn’t have any features:
edges shapes etc ; that’s why i said low salience. Jeff what’s your
thought?
Re temp error definitions :
In our case the stimulus arrives earlier or later after the gray screen.
In Jeff’s case the stimulus is replaced by the previous stimulus.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 3:16 AM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***>
wrote:
… Thanks
I do not know if gray screen is actually low salience, that is rather
subjective.
But can you expand your point ? How Does those differences explain the
difference between your studies ?
*Jérôme*
On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:53 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***>
wrote:
> We are extending the interval , So:
> AGA becomes AGGA for us.
>
> Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to gratings.
> So
> I don’t see them the same.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***>
> wrote:
>
> > Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are
important?
> I
> > am not sure I follow the reasoning.
> > A gray stimulus is a stimulus.
> > In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing
> AGAGA
> > -> AGAAGA = temporal error
> > In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error
> >
> > Is that right?
> >
> > —
> > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> > <
>
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The transition between a patterned stimulus and gray screen is salient (in that it drives a large/clear neural response) even if the gray screen itself is not.
On point two, to make sure it’s clear: when we replace the element with itself there is no change in the visual stimulus (e.g. element B stays on the screen for twice as long, not B-gray-B)
From: Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***>
Date: Thursday, October 16, 2025 at 9:09 AM
To: AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing ***@***.***>
Cc: Gavornik, Jeff ***@***.***>, Mention ***@***.***>
Subject: Re: [AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing] Discussion: meetings/2025-10-03 (Discussion #117) [EXTERNAL]
* External Email - Caution *
Visual experts can comment here but gray screen doesn’t have any features:
edges shapes etc ; that’s why i said low salience. Jeff what’s your
thought?
Re temp error definitions :
In our case the stimulus arrives earlier or later after the gray screen.
In Jeff’s case the stimulus is replaced by the previous stimulus.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 3:16 AM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***>
wrote:
Thanks
I do not know if gray screen is actually low salience, that is rather
subjective.
But can you expand your point ? How Does those differences explain the
difference between your studies ?
*Jérôme*
On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:53 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***>
wrote:
> We are extending the interval , So:
> AGA becomes AGGA for us.
>
> Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to gratings.
> So
> I don’t see them the same.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***>
> wrote:
>
> > Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are
important?
> I
> > am not sure I follow the reasoning.
> > A gray stimulus is a stimulus.
> > In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing
> AGAGA
> > -> AGAAGA = temporal error
> > In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error
> >
> > Is that right?
> >
> > —
> > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> > <
>
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All of this makes sense.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 9:37 AM jeffgavornik ***@***.***>
wrote:
… The transition between a patterned stimulus and gray screen is salient (in
that it drives a large/clear neural response) even if the gray screen
itself is not.
On point two, to make sure it’s clear: when we replace the element with
itself there is no change in the visual stimulus (e.g. element B stays on
the screen for twice as long, not B-gray-B)
From: Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***>
Date: Thursday, October 16, 2025 at 9:09 AM
To: AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing
***@***.***>
Cc: Gavornik, Jeff ***@***.***>, Mention ***@***.***>
Subject: Re:
[AllenNeuralDynamics/openscope-community-predictive-processing] Discussion:
meetings/2025-10-03 (Discussion #117) [EXTERNAL]
* External Email - Caution *
Visual experts can comment here but gray screen doesn’t have any features:
edges shapes etc ; that’s why i said low salience. Jeff what’s your
thought?
Re temp error definitions :
In our case the stimulus arrives earlier or later after the gray screen.
In Jeff’s case the stimulus is replaced by the previous stimulus.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 3:16 AM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***>
wrote:
> Thanks
>
> I do not know if gray screen is actually low salience, that is rather
> subjective.
>
> But can you expand your point ? How Does those differences explain the
> difference between your studies ?
>
> *Jérôme*
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:53 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***>
> wrote:
>
> > We are extending the interval , So:
> > AGA becomes AGGA for us.
> >
> > Gray screen is a pretty low salience stimulus in comparison to
gratings.
> > So
> > I don’t see them the same.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:28 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Can you explain a little more into why those definitions are
> important?
> > I
> > > am not sure I follow the reasoning.
> > > A gray stimulus is a stimulus.
> > > In Najafi lab , if gray is G and grating is A, B, C, D you are doing
> > AGAGA
> > > -> AGAAGA = temporal error
> > > In Gavornil lab, ABCD ABCD ABCD-> ABCD ABBD ABCD = temporal error
> > >
> > > Is that right?
> > >
> > > —
> > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> > > <
> >
>
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Thanks Farzaneh
Is this data in your manuscript ?
*Jérôme*
…On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 7:32 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***> wrote:
More on the potential effect of sleep
We have actually done what's in Jeff eLife 2025 paper that's multiple
exposure days to stimuli including omissions. But in our hands never
omission responses emerged.
So sleep can't explain the difference.
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Yes. Manuscript averages all sessions for each parading (fix/jitter. Short/
long. Random)
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 12:41 PM Jerome Lecoq ***@***.***>
wrote:
… Thanks Farzaneh
Is this data in your manuscript ?
*Jérôme*
On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 7:32 PM Farzaneh Najafi ***@***.***>
wrote:
> More on the potential effect of sleep
>
> We have actually done what's in Jeff eLife 2025 paper that's multiple
> exposure days to stimuli including omissions. But in our hands never
> omission responses emerged.
>
> So sleep can't explain the difference.
>
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