Web conference notes, 2025.02.13 (MDS Working Group)
- Monthly on Thursday at 9am PT, 12pm ET, 5/6pm CET - open to the public
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Zoom Registration and Join Link: https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZAscOmhpjIuHNakPx6CNbACpjUjw1Gsucr4
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Fixed Route Services
SFMTA would like update the Passenger Services Mode for new commuter shuttle fields, and the discussion will be around their proposal for how to make this work in MDS 2.1. See Pull Request #927.
- Intro and announcements (10 min)
- Fixed Route Services #927 (40 mins)
- SFMTA Commuter Shuttle Overview (10 mins) - shuttle program with a focus on the shuttle data gathered
- Zoom Poll (10 mins) - interest in regulating/ getting data from commuter shuttles in your jurisdictions
- Pull Request #927 (10 mins) - initial thoughts, planned changes based on comments
- Discussion/Comments (10 mins)
Follow-up from our Oct 24, 2024 discussion. See recording here.
WGSC Meeting Organizers
- Host: Pierre Bouffort, Blue Systems
- Facilitator: Michael Schnuerle, OMF
- Preparation: Michael Schnuerle, OMF
- Outreach: Michael Schnuerle, OMF
- Note taker: Michael Schnuerle, OMF
- Review and leave comments on newly updated Fixed Route PR #927
- 54 Attendees
- OMF Slides
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Recording - Password
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OMF’s 2025 event calendar can be found here: https://www.openmobilityfoundation.org/2025-calendar/
SFTMA presentation
Presentation on SFMTA shuttle program with a focus on the shuttle data they gather.
Mona Chiu to present the commuter shuttle overview from SFMTA.
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Improved regulation of shuttles
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Better operation of city streets
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Address neighborhood concerns
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Minimize conflicts between users
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Recover costs of regulating shuttles
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13 shuttle companies operate 882 shuttles
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Approximate 459 fixed routes and 3,305 trips dispatched in each week
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There are 98 designated shuttle zones
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Permit and Stop fees
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SFMTA issues administrative citations for 17 types of permit violations and parking citations for violations of parking requirements such as double parking, obstructing traffic and not pulling to curb.
The SFMTA's Commuter Shuttle Program includes a network of stops with unique stop ID and five street designations (see map in recording or slides):
- Green – Arterial street data maintained by California Department of Transportation
- Red – Streets with weight and passenger restriction
- White – Non arterial street restrict shuttle > 35 feet
- Purple – Slow Streets
- Exempted Streets
Commuter Shuttle Admin Penalty
- Citation from GPS data
- Any shuttle enter to the restricted street will be cited
MDS Integration Goals
- Collect stop usage for each stop from data
- Standardized data specification for fixed routes
- Public access to the routes network map
- Accessible documentation for providers
Questions
SFMTA already getting GPS data since 2020 from an existing, imperfect, custom API. Want to use MDS in this area like other areas so they can reduce data processing costs.
Different from busses, changes routes based on customer needs, currently stablized a bit, so not many changes now. Every year or so is average. Adding route ID to MDS in proposal.
Commuter Shuttle Data Poll
Do you have interest in regulating or getting data from commuter shuttles in your jurisdiction?
- 10 yes, 5 maybe, 0 no, 4 not applicable
What city is in your jurisdiction?
- Philly
- Chicago
- San Francisco
- Seattle
- Phoenix
- Los Angeles
Pull Request Process
Reminded OMF members on difference between issue and pull request with respective procedures for submitting. Starting around 46 minute mark.
Discussion Questions
Matthew Marwedel from SFMTA presented details of pull request. See recording and #927.
1. For stop_sequence, why not use stop_id in GTFS instead?
Agreed that seems like a good idea. Does stop_sequence need to be there for tracking where they went.
1. Maybe rename route_id field to gtfs_route_id so it's clear?
Agree clarify name and make sure document how to link to appropriate GTFS url (zip file).
1. gtfs_api_url was added to providers.csv file. But is this the right place?
Pointed out that each operator will need multiple URLs, for each city they are in. So URL should move to MDS data feeds, and not be in providers.
There was also a discussion about the completeness and value of the MDS API Url in the providers file. Many operators don't put their org into the providers file. Maybe the file is better just to register company names, IDs, websites, as an authoritative source of that but URLs might not be needed. Discussion can continue later at a future meeting or on GitHub.
1. Should stop_sequence, route_id, service_id be in the base MDS objects so they can be used for more than one mode (eg, maybe for Delivery Robots too), or should they only be in the Passenger Services mode?
SFMTA wants to use it for fixed routes for free shuttles for the public.
Seems to be fine to keep in the base objects. Pierre says ok, required only if applicable. Use cases like delivery bikes with fixed routes. Thinking about new use cases for future experimentation and keep it open.
Chicago delivery robots pilot can work. New York bike delivery through Amazon. General loops can be defined here and tracked deviations with GPS.
1. Do stop_sequence, route_id, service_id need to all be in Events, Telemetry, and Trips?
Stop sequence not in Trips, but in Telemetry. What is the name of this, is something better than stop_sequence.
Trips that have multiple stops that are not in the ids in GTFS, it would be captured in Events in this case.
Telemetry objects also have a journey ID.
1. What role does MDS Stops play in this, if any?
Maybe GTFS is purpose built for this so it should stay there, and not be part of MDS stops?
Comment from Stephen S.: Can use GTFS stop_id in events to link to GTFS stops.txt
Discussion
Change suggestions recorded from SFMTA:
- Need to add gtfs_api_url documentation somewhere
- Note that gtfs_api_url maybe different depending on the jurisdiction
- Stop_sequence may not be necessary in trips or telemetry (only needs to be in events)
Matt made updates to the request on Feb 19, after feedback from meeting.
GTFS is an open standardized data format that provides a structure for public transit agencies to describe the details of their services such as schedules, stops, fares, etc.
GTFS Schedule is a feed specification that defines a common format for static public transportation information. It is composed of a collection of at least 7 simple files: agency.txt, routes.txt, trips.txt, stops.txt, stop_times.txt, calendar.txt and calendar_dates.txt.
There are over 3,000 transit data feeds from 70 countries. San Francisco as MUNI, TMA, WETA, Angel Island Ferry, and Tideline Water Taxi. Commuter bus companies and/o SFMTA should also be able to create feeds in GTFS Schedule format for free or with a vendor.
00:03:29 Michael Schnuerle (OMF): Agenda and links to this topic here https://github.com/openmobilityfoundation/mobility-data-specification/wiki/Web-conference-notes,-2025.02.13-(MDS-Working-Group)
00:04:27 RUPAL BAPAT: Hello All. Rupal Bapat from the City of Chicago Dept. of Business Affairs & Consumer Protection
00:05:19 Andrew Glass Hastings (OMF): Reacted to "Hello All. Rupal Ba..." with 👍
00:05:48 Andrew Glass Hastings (OMF): Replying to "Hello All. Rupal Ba..."
Wonderful to see you Rupal!
00:06:20 Michael Schnuerle (OMF): OMF member steering committee https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftC7Lz2-bJLyX6XzgKWSrmCOBx75K2s8mr5DrZRFVtBPorIQ/viewform
00:07:00 Aylene McCallum // OMF: Open Mobility Mixer in Denver - RSVP here: https://open-mobility-mixer-denver-2025.eventbrite.com
00:07:36 Aylene McCallum // OMF: Please share on Linked In and invite your digital infrastructure colleagues located in Denver to join us!
00:08:23 Andrew Glass Hastings (OMF): Free drinks and friends!!
00:08:48 Aylene McCallum // OMF: Lots of mobility nerds have already RSVP'd for the Denver event so you will definitely make friends
00:08:52 Athan Rebelos Curb Mobility: Athan Rebelos Curb Mobility 🚖
00:09:27 Aylene McCallum // OMF: A very nostalgic Open Mobility Mixer
00:09:38 Andrew Glass Hastings (OMF): Reacted to "Athan Rebelos Curb M..." with 👍
00:10:30 Angela Giacchetti: OMF’s 2025 event calendar can be found here: https://www.openmobilityfoundation.org/2025-calendar/
00:18:10 Andrew Glass Hastings (OMF): Love that SFMTA goal of standardizing mobility data formats - perfect for MDS!
00:24:23 RUPAL BAPAT (City of Chicago BACP): Reacted to "Love that SFMTA goal..." with 👍
00:27:59 Michael Schnuerle (OMF): Follow along with the Pull Request and leave your comments and replies to comments at the bottom. https://github.com/openmobilityfoundation/mobility-data-specification/pull/927
00:31:42 Stephen Siciliano (Seattle DOT): Curious about an incrementing integer for stop_sequence as opposed to using the GTFS stop_id (which seems like it’d be more stable for long-term analysis; also if multiple routes serve the same stop you’d be able to understand that).
00:31:48 Michael Schnuerle (OMF): Reacted to "Curious about an inc..." with 👍🏼
00:36:05 Matt Davis (Populus): Reacted to "Curious about an inc..." with 👍
00:36:12 Stephen Siciliano (Seattle DOT): Sounds great!
00:36:53 Andrew Glass Hastings (OMF): Safe space - no dumb questions!
00:41:37 Matt Davis (Populus): What is the larger utility of the providers.csv file in MDS? I’ve been using MDS for several years and I don’t think I’ve ever used it.
00:55:01 Matt Davis (Populus): Definitely on Events and Trips. Not sure it needs to be on Telemetry.
00:56:21 Pierre Bouffort (Blue Systems): Reacted to "Definitely on Even..." with 👍
00:56:36 Pierre Bouffort (Blue Systems): Agree with Matt on the above :)
00:57:54 Matt Davis (Populus): Could see it being useful on Telemetry if we care about which telemetries are on trips (while moving between stops) and which telemetries are from being stopped or something?
That relates to how we define a “trip” for this mode. Is a trip defined as moving between stops? Is it defined at all?
00:59:40 Matt Davis (Populus): Telemetry objects do have a journey_id field that could be used to tie together telemetries from the same “journey”.
00:59:51 Michael Schnuerle (OMF): Reacted to "Telemetry objects do..." with 👍🏼
01:00:39 Chay Mosqueda | WFRC: I have to run to another meeting! Have a good day all
01:01:03 Pierre Bouffort (Blue Systems): I think it would, I believe the trip would describe the movement from stop A to stop B, and the overall route would be described by the journey altogether (ie. the group of trips pu together).
To your point about telemetries, I believe we would only use the stop identification with the events, and not the in-between telemetries. Generally, we believe telemetries is mostly to give individual breadcrumbs of GPS between events
01:02:20 Christy Hirsch, Blue Systems: Thank you, Great Meeting!
01:02:20 Armand Shahbazian / Seattle DOT: thanks!
